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Ugggh... And the Battle rages on. My father (CA fish and Game) Shoots a 40 cal glock and is extremely proficient with it. He was speaking with my Aunts (Glendale narcotics officer) boyfriend (FBI) were talking about the FBI switching back to 9mm. He stated one reason is that a lot of their agents are smaller in stature and cannot handle the recoil of a larger caliber. Fish and Game studied the balistics on several calibers and concluded that the 40 cal had near the ballistics of the 45 with less recoil and more stopping power than the 9mm. In the long run its who puts the first accurate shot on target regardless of caliber but thats just what I was taught from an old gunslinger.
 

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I'd say of that list, only the capacity, and cost are truely valid. "Shootability" is fine, but with enough trigger time, it's possible to get as good on pretty much any caliber. People seem to be forgetting that 9mm was the big caliber of the '80s as well, and that lead to the high profile failure of a hollow point design in a shootout. Going off of the reviews I've see of the FBI's next probable round, the Gold Dot G2, it looks like history might end up repeating it's self.


Disclaimer: .45 Auto fanboy here, and nobody is going to convince me that round for round, .45 isn't better than 9mm.
 

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People seem to be forgetting that 9mm was the big caliber of the '80s as well, and that lead to the high profile failure of a hollow point design in a shootout. Going off of the reviews I've see of the FBI's next probable round, the Gold Dot G2, it looks like history might end up repeating it's self.


Disclaimer: .45 Auto fanboy here, and nobody is going to convince me that round for round, .45 isn't better than 9mm.
45 fan here as well, and carry it more often than 9mm, but I still trust 9mm. I have not seen much on the Gold Dot G2, but the Gold Dots out of 4" + bbls is good. HST's out of 3" + bbl's are very effect as well, and what I carry in 9mm. Hollow point design has come a long way since the '80's as the bullets have been bonded and some of the new designs open effectively and still penetrate well. There are still several newer designs I will not touch though (same can be said for any caliber though)
 

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45 fan here as well, and carry it more often than 9mm, but I still trust 9mm. I have not seen much on the Gold Dot G2, but the Gold Dots out of 4" + bbls is good. HST's out of 3" + bbl's are very effect as well, and what I carry in 9mm. Hollow point design has come a long way since the '80's as the bullets have been bonded and some of the new designs open effectively and still penetrate well. There are still several newer designs I will not touch though (same can be said for any caliber though)
You should check out the G2 reviews/tests on YouTube. More than a few failures.

And honestly, to each their own. If the Po-Pos want to switch over to 9mm, that's their call. I know 9mm can perform well enough to serve it's purpose, I've just also seen enough bullets fail in one way or another to not want to trust it myself.
 

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Just found a message my dad sent me regarding the issue. It's after I bought a 9mm to train with due to the cost issue. There are exceptional shooters of all genders and sizes that can manipulate many weapons expertly though there are generalizations to be considered organization wide. Why my father pressed me so hard to buy a glock for carry so we could share magazines.

"Hi ------, Law enforcement agencies, especially the FBI consider the size and capabilities of their officers when choosing a firearm. The FBI have a bunch of women and accountants in their ranks of agents. Small framed people need small framed guns with less recoil. FBI agents are paper pushers for the most part and don't practice and can't shoot for ****. This was told to me by more than one FBI firearms instructor. Agencies also worry about missed shots and who might be hit by as unintended consequences. Collateral damage if you will. My 40cal glock holds 14 rounds. How many extra will a 9mm hold? In Cal you can't legally have more than 10 rounds in a mag unless that law has changed. I like the 40cal because it has nearly the ballistics of the 45 with much less kick. The 38 S&W and the 9mm were built to wound. The police, in the old days, didn't want to kill so they issued the 38 and the military wanted to wound they enemy because it would take at least two combatants off the battlefield. At least one to carry the wounded guy. It all boils down to what make you comfortable and confident. I love the 40cal."
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just found a message my dad sent me regarding the issue. It's after I bought a 9mm to train with due to the cost issue. There are exceptional shooters of all genders and sizes that can manipulate many weapons expertly though there are generalizations to be considered organization wide. Why my father pressed me so hard to buy a glock for carry so we could share magazines.

"Hi ------, Law enforcement agencies, especially the FBI consider the size and capabilities of their officers when choosing a firearm. The FBI have a bunch of women and accountants in their ranks of agents. Small framed people need small framed guns with less recoil. FBI agents are paper pushers for the most part and don't practice and can't shoot for ****. This was told to me by more than one FBI firearms instructor. Agencies also worry about missed shots and who might be hit by as unintended consequences. Collateral damage if you will. My 40cal glock holds 14 rounds. How many extra will a 9mm hold? In Cal you can't legally have more than 10 rounds in a mag unless that law has changed. I like the 40cal because it has nearly the ballistics of the 45 with much less kick. The 38 S&W and the 9mm were built to wound. The police, in the old days, didn't want to kill so they issued the 38 and the military wanted to wound they enemy because it would take at least two combatants off the battlefield. At least one to carry the wounded guy. It all boils down to what make you comfortable and confident. I love the 40cal."

Pretty much same why US Military went to 5.56 yrs. ago!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So what I learned is the type of round I need for armor penetration and the type of armor that will fail if I get shot by said rounds. Great video, thatnks for that.
99% of all 7.62X25 ammo if Milsurp will defeat 3A soft Body Armor and some will pass thru front of vest and come out the back! The modern stuff is basically JUNK! The best is the banned M-48 Czech steel core!
 
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I wonder if the AR500 steel plate will stop the Liberty Ammo ? If I can find the Liberty Ammo tomorrow at my LGS I will try it on the AR500 hard plate. Got to make the trip anyway, they called and said my other EVO came in, none of the 20, thirty rd mags made it I had ordered came in, imagine that. :cry:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I wonder if the AR500 steel plate will stop the Liberty Ammo ? If I can find the Liberty Ammo tomorrow at my LGS I will try it on the AR500 hard plate. Got to make the trip anyway, they called and said my other EVO came in, none of the 20, thirty rd mags made it I had ordered came in, imagine that. :cry:


The makers of AR500 do have a vid of their steel plate stopping all types of Liberty ammo, they say their plate is rated at 3A, however there is not and never has been a NIJ rating for steel plate 3A armor since all 3A is soft and 3 is hard and even 5.56 etc wont penetrate it. They did admit this when called out about the Non-Existent rating, so their steel plate rating is Non-Existent and is basically level 3! Why they pull this Crap is

In the 1980's in Hong-Kong their cops wear getting killed wearing 3A body armor due to the X25 milsurp ammo being used and they did come up with 3A enhanced armor!
 

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I'd say of that list, only the capacity, and cost are truely valid. "Shootability" is fine, but with enough trigger time, it's possible to get as good on pretty much any caliber.
Yes and no. It's possible to be proficient on anything with enough practice but some things are inherently easier. You might be able to train hard enough to run fast with 10 pounds weight on your ankles but no matter how fast you get with them on, you'll always be faster with them off. I can shoot all major handgun calibers accurately and fairly fast. With that said, less recoil means I can go faster and stay accurate.

The reason I choose 9mm is because that seems to be the point of diminishing returns regarding power, accuracy and speed. It might not be as strong as a .45 but with a quality round I don't feel I'd be at any disadvantage either. If I hit a vital with either I am likely going to have the same result. If I don't hit a vital, caliber won't matter. Difference being I am holding a lot more chances with a 9mm and can deal them out a lot quicker and with better odds regardless of what caliber I like best.
 

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The 38 S&W and the 9mm were built to wound. The police, in the old days, didn't want to kill so they issued the 38 and the military wanted to wound they enemy because it would take at least two combatants off the battlefield.
No offense but your dad is passing on some shenanigans lol. Built to wound? Yeah I don't think so. If you have an underpowered HP that won't penetrate then obviously you have a problem but if you hit a vital with a 9mm or .40 the other guy is generally toast. If you don't then the guy isn't. Handguns are pretty much crap unless you hit a vital.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
No offense but your dad is passing on some shenanigans lol. Built to wound? Yeah I don't think so. If you have an underpowered HP that won't penetrate then obviously you have a problem but if you hit a vital with a 9mm or .40 the other guy is generally toast. If you don't then the guy isn't. Handguns are pretty much crap unless you hit a vital.

Mesa, no offense but ur also passing on some shenanigans, during WW2 the German military was not wanting to kill but to wound and many weapons were so designed since as stated more people would be tied up having to care for a wounded soldier, since a dead 1 needs no care!
 
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I think that the pistol caliber argument is like pissing into the wind. There is no magical caliber that is a gaurantee to "get the job done" without fail everytime the trigger is pulled. Stopping power doesn't really exist in the sense that some think it does. Unless that projectile hits something that impairs motor function in some way a determined attacker will keep coming. Yes one caliber is capable of making bigger holes than another. Bullet construction is extremely important and has a lot to do with the effectiveness of the caliber in question. At the end of the day what you are most proficient with will win the day for you.

A small inexperienced shooter can carry a .357 magnum and think that it makes them safer because it's a "big gun" but if they can't hit anything with it it's useless.

Too many times I have seen a new shooter say they want some specific type of pistol and won't settle for anything else. Once they get it and get it out to the range they can't hit 12" X 12" target that's 15 feet away from them after a day's practice. I would hand that same shooter another pistol and they would have no problem hitting that same target at that same distance. Point is to use what works for you. Your size, your body type, hand size ETC. sitting right here where I am in life I can't bring myself to tell anyone that a certain pistol caliber is better than another for self defense. My approach is always to take an interested party to a local range and rent several pistols. Almost every time I have done this the individual walked out with a different pistol in mind then when they walked in.

One thing that I am sure those of you who are reading this probably have in mind is shot placement isn't exactly 100% under your control when you are panicked and shooting under stress. In that case it's natural to think if a projectile does find meat it's best to take as much meat as possible. To that point I still find the difference between 9mm and 45 is negligible. That's my personal opinion.

Bottom line is that shot placement trumps caliber every time.
 
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