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Discussion Starter #1
My question: In a real life room/building sweep, would the 9mm (like an MP5) be better for stopping power then the 5.7 ss197? or any 5.7 rnd? If body armor is not in the picture. What would you feel more at ease packing going in with?
 

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I often ask myself that question. There isn't much data for us to go on. In the two cases of the P90 vs man I have read about the round did its job. I'm not impressed with the statistics for the 9mm. But I have not seen enough evidence to draw any conclusion on whether the 5.7 is better or worse than the 9mm on unarmored targets. The lower recoil and larger mags of 5.7x28mm appeals to me, though.

For subsonic the 9mm would be the better choice.

Since I'm not a soldier or a SWAT team member I will never know what it feels like to clear a building. But I imagine I would feel confident with any weapon or tool with which I had lots of training and practice. When it comes to efficient killing shot placement is of the most importance. Number of holes is next. The size of the wound channel, I've been told, isn't as important as the quantity of holes.

For example, incident statistics supposedly illustrate that two hits with a 9mm should kill faster than one shot from a .44 mag.

So it comes to me that speed and accuracy are paramount. A low impulse automatic weapon that fits your body, has modern optics, and whose function is part of your muscle memory is all you can wish for.
 

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Well, I read an article about two months ago in a magazine, and they tested the power of the round (I forget the name of the magazine, but I did mention it on another thread somewhere around here). Anyway, the rounds performed very well, but mainly out of the PS90.

If I remember correctly, it had the energy equivalent of a +p 9mm round or so, but only from the long barrel of the PS90. It had below 9mm energy (upon impact) when coming out of the 5-7 pistol, however. At least this is what the article claimed.
 

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Muzzel said:
My question: In a real life room/building sweep, would the 9mm (like an MP5) be better for stopping power then the 5.7 ss197?
Well, if you had access to an MP5 then I doubt you would be using SS197 also. So if I had the choice between 9mm and SS190, then I would easily take SS190. I would still take the 50 round P90 mag full of SS190 than a 30 round MP5 full of 9mm.
You can not say without body armor involved because unless someone else has already cleared the building, you wouldn't know if anyone had body armor on it would you?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well I was trying to keep the ss197 round more on an even plane with the 9mm as ss197 is the heavier weight and non-armor. Yes you would not know for sure that someone was not wearing armor. But lets just say they did not wearing any. So because of the heavier bullet mass of the 9mm would it not be a better choice coming from a subgun at close range?

I was thinking in terms like a .45 bigger and slower and hard impact. Seems like the 5.7 would not have the thump of a larger bullet. Also a mag clamp on a MP5 would give you 60 rounds that could be deployed rather quickly. But I'm not trying to defend the 9mm rather interested in opinions regarding what you would have more confidence in on a situation at close ranges.

I remember reading some where that the P90 was issued to a swat team or CT group and they felt uneasy/undergunned about using the 5.7 for their subgun. I guess that's what sparked my question.
 

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Muzzel said:
Well what's the verdict? Bigger/slower, little/faster for take down...
I don't think anyone will come to a consensus.

As I believe I said before, I read someplace else where they put the bullet into th e9mm category as long as you didn't compare it to +P 9mm ammo.
 

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If my two cents is worth any thing at the end of the day its all shot placement and what ever you can shoot better you should use because one in the mellon or in pump its ending there...
 

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.45 UMP
vs
9mm MP5
vs
5.7 PS90....

From a ballistics standpoint I don't think it would make much of a difference since you will be on full auto. Multiple hits should take the suspect down.

The UMP is the hardest to shoot, recoil. The PS90 easiest least recoil.

I'd go through the door with any of them but would pick the PS90 for mag capacity and reduced recoil.

:mrgreen:
 

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personally from the stand point of clearing a average size building i would take the p90 as first choice since even with the long 16" barrel its still shorter than a fixed stock mp5.
 

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How well does SS195 perform in 10% gel when shot out of the PS90? Compare that to 9mm Luger shot out of a MP5/carbine and a 9mm Luger pistol.
 

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Let me qualify my opinion, I'm not a cop or a ninja, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!

I recently went to the Bountiful UT range to shoot my PS90, there were two SWAT snipers shooting their .308s. We got to talking about the P90, they said that they had shot them and really liked them, but the P90's did not do well through car windshsheilds-so they are no longer allowed to use them.

Not the question you asked, but related I think. I love my PS90, but I do not consider it perfect, but in my opinion, no weapon is. I view them as golf clubs, sometimes you need a driver, other times a putter-the PS90 is a 5, 6, or 7 iron.

FYI Muzzel, fair warning-do not ask the vs. 9mm question on the other forum, you will get scolded! If you dare question the perfection and supremacy of the 5.7 they will jump all over you. This forum is much more tolerant and pleasant.
 

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In the Buick of Truth, supposedly they shot several SS197 into the door and none of the rounds made it through to the other door. They must have fragmented or stopped after the first layer of sheet metal. Old Painless was willing to do tests, but he needs loaner weapons and ammo.
 

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The issue here is three-fold;

1. Penetration; the FBI considers at least 12" sufficient. Most people's chests are not 12" deep, but they may have their arm in front of them, be behind a door, etc. Your average human torso isn't 12" deep, but there can be other circumstances that reduce penetration.

2. Expansion/wound cavity. You have to destroy tissue in the body to make the person bleed to death, or in the case of a headshot, instantly incapacitate them. All other factors being equal, a larger wound cavity = more blood loss.

3. Accuracy. Being able to hit the target at all, let alone in a way to maximize blood loss, is very advantageous.

So:

Penetration/Expansion:

The 9mm ball ammo has a tremendous advantage in penetration on unarmored targets. It creates a small (9mm) wound cavity.

9mm JHP has excellent penetration from either a handgun or rifle, and will create a 0.6"-0.7" depending on ammo wound cavity.

Out of a P90, the 5.7mm achieves penetration of 12" with SS190 ammo in 10% gelatin. The wound cavity is different than 9mm ball or JHP-- the bullet tends to tumble once, so entering it's creating a 5.7mm x 5.7mm wound, then tumbles to create a 5.7mm x 28mm wound, then rights itself to be 5.7mm x 5.7mm again.

Now, I don't know how far the 5.7 tumbles for, so I cannot give you the overall volume, but even best case it's going to best less than a 9mm JHP.

The advantage here comes when body armor is considered; the shape of the 5.7 round ("sharper") and the higher velocity means it is less effected by body armor and still able to penetrate whereas the 9mm cannot.

This may apply to more than kevlar too, such as car doors/windows etc.

I don't know how much penetration it can do after defeating armor or light cover, though. But if the 9mm cannot penetrate at all, that's better than being ineffective. I'd have to give 9mm the nod for unarmored targets, with the caveat of light cover maybe swaying things to the 5.7 sometimes.

Accuracy:

The P90 has excellent integrated optics, good ergonomics, and a short, flush-with-the-body design. The 5.7 has low recoil, and you have a 50 round magazine for follow-up shots.

What these factors mean is that your accuracy will probably be better than, say, a MP5 with iron sights, your follow-up shots will be more accurate, and the short bullpup design means you can aim it better in "close quarters" and it's less likely to be deflected or taken away than a longer gun.

Now, if the accuracy advantage is enough, it may eclipse the difference in wound cavities, such that the blood loss can be greater with a 5.7 shot, because even though that round created a smaller wound, it hit a more critical location and is causing far more blood loss. And then there are headshots...

Stopping Power:

Stopping power is almost irrelevant. If you shoot them in the brain with pretty much any gun, there's a 95% chance they will die instantly. If you shoot them anywhere else, even destroying the heart, they still have up to 30 seconds of conscious control of their body, which is more than enough time to shoot/stab you. If they fall before 30 seconds, that's psychological trauma alone. Of shots that hit the body, what matters is shot placement and penetration. The 12" of penetration is adequate and it seems the factors are very good for shot placement.

You can't do an apples-to-oranges comparison between a 5.7mm P90 and a 9mm P90. You can only compare the gun and ammo to other guns. And ya know, the optics and bullpup design do give it an advantage over the MP5... maybe one that can offset the ammo differences even.
 

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Frangible said:
The issue here is three-fold;

1. Penetration; the FBI considers at least 12" sufficient. Most people's chests are not 12" deep, but they may have their arm in front of them, be behind a door, etc. Your average human torso isn't 12" deep, but there can be other circumstances that reduce penetration.

2. Expansion/wound cavity. You have to destroy tissue in the body to make the person bleed to death, or in the case of a headshot, instantly incapacitate them. All other factors being equal, a larger wound cavity = more blood loss.

3. Accuracy. Being able to hit the target at all, let alone in a way to maximize blood loss, is very advantageous.

So:

Penetration/Expansion:

The 9mm ball ammo has a tremendous advantage in penetration on unarmored targets. It creates a small (9mm) wound cavity.

9mm JHP has excellent penetration from either a handgun or rifle, and will create a 0.6"-0.7" depending on ammo wound cavity.

Out of a P90, the 5.7mm achieves penetration of 12" with SS190 ammo in 10% gelatin. The wound cavity is different than 9mm ball or JHP-- the bullet tends to tumble once, so entering it's creating a 5.7mm x 5.7mm wound, then tumbles to create a 5.7mm x 28mm wound, then rights itself to be 5.7mm x 5.7mm again.

Now, I don't know how far the 5.7 tumbles for, so I cannot give you the overall volume, but even best case it's going to best less than a 9mm JHP.

The advantage here comes when body armor is considered; the shape of the 5.7 round ("sharper") and the higher velocity means it is less effected by body armor and still able to penetrate whereas the 9mm cannot.

This may apply to more than kevlar too, such as car doors/windows etc.

I don't know how much penetration it can do after defeating armor or light cover, though. But if the 9mm cannot penetrate at all, that's better than being ineffective. I'd have to give 9mm the nod for unarmored targets, with the caveat of light cover maybe swaying things to the 5.7 sometimes.

Accuracy:

The P90 has excellent integrated optics, good ergonomics, and a short, flush-with-the-body design. The 5.7 has low recoil, and you have a 50 round magazine for follow-up shots.

What these factors mean is that your accuracy will probably be better than, say, a MP5 with iron sights, your follow-up shots will be more accurate, and the short bullpup design means you can aim it better in "close quarters" and it's less likely to be deflected or taken away than a longer gun.

Now, if the accuracy advantage is enough, it may eclipse the difference in wound cavities, such that the blood loss can be greater with a 5.7 shot, because even though that round created a smaller wound, it hit a more critical location and is causing far more blood loss. And then there are headshots...

Stopping Power:

Stopping power is almost irrelevant. If you shoot them in the brain with pretty much any gun, there's a 95% chance they will die instantly. If you shoot them anywhere else, even destroying the heart, they still have up to 30 seconds of conscious control of their body, which is more than enough time to shoot/stab you. If they fall before 30 seconds, that's psychological trauma alone. Of shots that hit the body, what matters is shot placement and penetration. The 12" of penetration is adequate and it seems the factors are very good for shot placement.

You can't do an apples-to-oranges comparison between a 5.7mm P90 and a 9mm P90. You can only compare the gun and ammo to other guns. And ya know, the optics and bullpup design do give it an advantage over the MP5... maybe one that can offset the ammo differences even.
Actually, the stock reflex sight on the P90 and PS90 are liabilities for accuracy/precision. You're more likely to make all your shots on target with the iron sights on an AK-47 than relying on the horrible MC-10-80.

If you want accuracy, penetration, and a good wound cavity, 5.56x45 is a better choice (hence the shift from 9mm MP5s to 5.56 M4s in LE).
 

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My own two cents here.

If we're talking 9mm bullets and not the 9x19 round, then I'd put my hard-earned $$ on 9mm bullets fired from .357SIG or 9x25 rounds over the 5.7x28 in semi-auto fire for their terminal ballistics.

I have a Sig p226 in .357SIG, and has more penetrating power at the cost of shot placement.
 

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Wouldn't really want to shot with either round.

Honestly, all of the classic self-defense cartridges (including the 5.7mm) will do about the same thing -- make the other guy not want to play anymore.
 

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black campbell said:
Wouldn't really want to shot with either round.

Honestly, all of the classic self-defense cartridges (including the 5.7mm) will do about the same thing -- make the other guy not want to play anymore.

+1
 

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A 9mm BALL round surely has more penetration through Jello than the 5.7x28mm round.. In fact, thats the problem. 9mm has a nasty habit of going through one side of the target and out the other, killing people down range.

This is a waste of energy.

If the bullet doesn't stop in the target, it doesn't deliver all its energy into the target.

I would rather have a round that stops dead in flesh and deliveres all its deadly payload.

Also, 9mm HP's have about the same performance as a handloaded 40grn varmint bullet at 2.2x the velocity. FN's claim is that the SS197, in the words of Bob Ailes, is "the round we should have been making all along." The SS197 is a conservative loading. In fact, it is below my proofed starting load for my 40 grain load.
 
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