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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Not surprising at all, frankly.

I have a complex view of LE organizations. On the one hand, its clear they are vital. It's clear the guys with boots on the ground have a tough gig, and need to be supported. But it is also true that, as organizations, they clearly have some deep seated problems. Too many suits, politically motivated people, and those who just don't know anything about the job are making decisions. This is true of many organizations, and not just police ones.

But there is another fundamental idea at play here, that is dangerous and goes nearly unchallenged: the idea of "crime prevention."

"Crime prevention" necessarily implies that LEOs should be scrutinizing citizens who have no record of breaking the law. "Crime prevention" encourages the general view that everyone is a potential criminal, and all must be scrutinized, and surveilled, in order to prevent the actions of the would-be criminal. It encourages a mindset among LEOs to view the public with distrust generally, and along with various laws that tend to provide police, even after retirement, benefits not afforded to the average citizen helps to create within them a mindset that they are above, or more privileged, than regular citizens.

This is the mindset of every police state that has ever or can ever exist. And, of course, it becomes far more expansive of a view among federal agencies that govern from a far, and whom even among local federal field offices never really come into contact with the people they are policing. Local LEO organizations, by necessity, are a bit more immune to this but are certainly not inoculated, especially as the size of the city grows.

I can guarantee the ATF salivates at the type of intrusive, unchecked power that NYPD enjoys regularly.
 

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Is anyone surprised?
No, not surprised.

Not surprising at all, frankly.

I have a complex view of LE organizations. On the one hand, its clear they are vital. It's clear the guys with boots on the ground have a tough gig, and need to be supported. But it is also true that, as organizations, they clearly have some deep seated problems. Too many suits, politically motivated people, and those who just don't know anything about the job are making decisions. This is true of many organizations, and not just police ones.

But there is another fundamental idea at play here, that is dangerous and goes nearly unchallenged: the idea of "crime prevention."

"Crime prevention" necessarily implies that LEOs should be scrutinizing citizens who have no record of breaking the law. "Crime prevention" encourages the general view that everyone is a potential criminal, and all must be scrutinized, and surveilled, in order to prevent the actions of the would-be criminal. It encourages a mindset among LEOs to view the public with distrust generally, and along with various laws that tend to provide police, even after retirement, benefits not afforded to the average citizen helps to create within them a mindset that they are above, or more privileged, than regular citizens.

This is the mindset of every police state that has ever or can ever exist. And, of course, it becomes far more expansive of a view among federal agencies that govern from a far, and whom even among local federal field offices never really come into contact with the people they are policing. Local LEO organizations, by necessity, are a bit more immune to this but are certainly not inoculated, especially as the size of the city grows.

I can guarantee the ATF salivates at the type of intrusive, unchecked power that NYPD enjoys regularly.
I was about to post about how frightening it is that the ATF is suspecting future crimes?

That raises all kinds of questions. Who decides on how many guns is appropriate for one person to buy? Will the ATF publicly disclose the magic number?

I have seen people post pics of their personal collection and think to myself that some of those people now have to be on an ATF watch list.
 

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Not surprising at all, frankly.

I have a complex view of LE organizations. On the one hand, its clear they are vital. It's clear the guys with boots on the ground have a tough gig, and need to be supported. But it is also true that, as organizations, they clearly have some deep seated problems. Too many suits, politically motivated people, and those who just don't know anything about the job are making decisions. This is true of many organizations, and not just police ones.

But there is another fundamental idea at play here, that is dangerous and goes nearly unchallenged: the idea of "crime prevention."

"Crime prevention" necessarily implies that LEOs should be scrutinizing citizens who have no record of breaking the law. "Crime prevention" encourages the general view that everyone is a potential criminal, and all must be scrutinized, and surveilled, in order to prevent the actions of the would-be criminal. It encourages a mindset among LEOs to view the public with distrust generally, and along with various laws that tend to provide police, even after retirement, benefits not afforded to the average citizen helps to create within them a mindset that they are above, or more privileged, than regular citizens.

This is the mindset of every police state that has ever or can ever exist. And, of course, it becomes far more expansive of a view among federal agencies that govern from a far, and whom even among local federal field offices never really come into contact with the people they are policing. Local LEO organizations, by necessity, are a bit more immune to this but are certainly not inoculated, especially as the size of the city grows.

I can guarantee the ATF salivates at the type of intrusive, unchecked power that NYPD enjoys regularly.
Off topic but your post also taps into the fear that many people may have about some sorta of Federal Policing Act that seems to be gaining traction if you watch the media and listen to lawmakers. I am not saying it is here yet but there seems to be a lot of talk about local police need to be reimagined. I suspect that reimagined means federal control of local police. Of course the leftist, Dems, and media will sell it as a move to end systemic racism in local police departments. Look at the coverage of blacks being killed by cops, never mind if they have fatal amount of drugs in their system or if they have a knife and are attacking someone, they are being murdered by white racist cops! This must be stopped at any cost according to those usual suspects.
 

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No, not surprised.



I was about to post about how frightening it is that the ATF is suspecting future crimes?

That raises all kinds of questions. Who decides on how many guns is appropriate for one person to buy? Will the ATF publicly disclose the magic number?

I have seen people post pics of their personal collection and think to myself that some of those people now have to be on an ATF watch list.
We've all seen Minority Report and if you haven't, it's arresting people for crimes committed in the future (by a government device). Therefore, before the person acts on any crime at all they are instead arrested.

We cannot let this stand!

The ATF; oh excuse me the AFT needs to answer for their treasonous acts or be defunded all together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Off topic but your post also taps into the fear that many people may have about some sorta of Federal Policing Act that seems to be gaining traction if you watch the media and listen to lawmakers. I am not saying it is here yet but there seems to be a lot of talk about local police need to be reimagined. I suspect that reimagined means federal control of local police. Of course the leftist, Dems, and media will sell it as a move to end systemic racism in local police departments. Look at the coverage of blacks being killed by cops, never mind if they have fatal amount of drugs in their system or if they have a knife and are attacking someone, they are being murdered by white racist cops! This must be stopped at any cost according to those usual suspects.
That’s the agenda behind the Marxist BLM/Democrat mantra of “Defund The Police”.

They don’t want local PD’s.

Instead, they want a national police state that will do the bidding of a democrat controlled government. Because, after all, the local cops are all a bunch of racists.

Don’t look at the facts. Just listen to the lies - and if repeated often enough, the sheep start believing the lies.

Shades of Nazi Germany’s Gestapo.
 

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We've all seen Minority Report and if you haven't, it's arresting people for crimes committed in the future (by a government device). Therefore, before the person acts on any crime at all they are instead arrested.

We cannot let this stand!

The ATF; oh excuse me the AFT needs to answer for their treasonous acts or be defunded all together.
That’s the agenda behind the Marxist BLM/Democrat mantra of “Defund The Police”.

They don’t want local PD’s.

Instead, they want a national police state that will do the bidding of a democrat controlled government. Because, after all, the local cops are all a bunch of racists.

Don’t look at the facts. Just listen to the lies - and if repeated often enough, the sheep start believing the lies.

Shades of Nazi Germany’s Gestapo.
Exactly... However, it does not extend solely to LE. It also applies to all aspects of the U.S., military beginning with the purge which took place during Obama's term/s and which continues under this current administration, not to mention the FBI, DOJ and other related departments.

They do aspire to create a federal police force, as well as command a military which holds no allegiance to the USA, its Constitution, or its citizens.

And then we have the rush to align / re-align themselves with the UN, which would of course be only too willing to provide a "Peace Keeping" force should the unruly citizens of the USA object to and resist the abolition of their freedoms and sovereignty. Especially when the vast majority of LE and military would overwhelmingly be pro Constitution and citizen.

Scary times, but it appears to me that the current administration is possibly more scared than the citizens... Fences, troops and stepped up security is quite telling.
 

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We've all seen Minority Report and if you haven't, it's arresting people for crimes committed in the future (by a government device). Therefore, before the person acts on any crime at all they are instead arrested.

We cannot let this stand!

The ATF; oh excuse me the AFT needs to answer for their treasonous acts or be defunded all together.
Who knew that piece of fiction morph into a documentary.
 

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Not surprising at all, frankly.

I have a complex view of LE organizations. On the one hand, its clear they are vital. It's clear the guys with boots on the ground have a tough gig, and need to be supported. But it is also true that, as organizations, they clearly have some deep seated problems. Too many suits, politically motivated people, and those who just don't know anything about the job are making decisions. This is true of many organizations, and not just police ones.

But there is another fundamental idea at play here, that is dangerous and goes nearly unchallenged: the idea of "crime prevention."

"Crime prevention" necessarily implies that LEOs should be scrutinizing citizens who have no record of breaking the law. "Crime prevention" encourages the general view that everyone is a potential criminal, and all must be scrutinized, and surveilled, in order to prevent the actions of the would-be criminal. It encourages a mindset among LEOs to view the public with distrust generally, and along with various laws that tend to provide police, even after retirement, benefits not afforded to the average citizen helps to create within them a mindset that they are above, or more privileged, than regular citizens.

This is the mindset of every police state that has ever or can ever exist. And, of course, it becomes far more expansive of a view among federal agencies that govern from a far, and whom even among local federal field offices never really come into contact with the people they are policing. Local LEO organizations, by necessity, are a bit more immune to this but are certainly not inoculated, especially as the size of the city grows.

I can guarantee the ATF salivates at the type of intrusive, unchecked power that NYPD enjoys regularly.

I'd sure like to know what empirical research you've seen that leads you to your conclusions....
 

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I'd sure like to know what empirical research you've seen that leads you to your conclusions....
Which conclusions are those?

Clear that the boots on the ground have a tough gig? I was raised by a LEO.

Too many suits in police, and nearly all other large organizations who are detached from the work being done? I live in the world, and actually work jobs with several major corporations.

The idea that the concept of "crime prevention" implies scrutinizing citizens? It's not an observation to begin with. It's an understanding of an implication of ideas.

The idea that the mindset of police states are that the police are overlords over the people? I read history.

That NYPD has crazy unchecked power compared to ATF? I was born in NY state, and lived NYC for several years.

Looks like we have another one, guys. I swear its like playing whack-a-mole.
 

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Which conclusions are those?

Clear that the boots on the ground have a tough gig? I was raised by a LEO.

Too many suits in police, and nearly all other large organizations who are detached from the work being done? I live in the world, and actually work jobs with several major corporations.

The idea that the concept of "crime prevention" implies scrutinizing citizens? It's not an observation to begin with. It's an understanding of an implication of ideas.

The idea that the mindset of police states are that the police are overlords over the people? I read history.

That NYPD has crazy unchecked power compared to ATF? I was born in NY state, and lived NYC for several years.

Looks like we have another one, guys. I swear its like playing whack-a-mole.
I don't speak for you and am glad you responded. I am not an expert on anything much less the AFT. However, if you look at a few high profile cases involving the AFT then I think most people can draw their own logical conclusions. There is plenty of evidence out there supporting your conclusions.
 

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I don't speak for you and am glad you responded. I am not an expert on anything much less the AFT. However, if you look at a few high profile cases involving the AFT then I think most people can draw their own logical conclusions. There is plenty of evidence out there supporting your conclusions.
Yeah, for sure! I kept it brief because I'm no longer inclined to get into a bunch of deep dives with a GP clone who isn't going to engage in an honest way to begin with. Not that I'm sure this gentleman fits that bill, but until proven otherwise, I'll keep it light.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Which conclusions are those?

Clear that the boots on the ground have a tough gig? I was raised by a LEO.

Too many suits in police, and nearly all other large organizations who are detached from the work being done? I live in the world, and actually work jobs with several major corporations.

The idea that the concept of "crime prevention" implies scrutinizing citizens? It's not an observation to begin with. It's an understanding of an implication of ideas.

The idea that the mindset of police states are that the police are overlords over the people? I read history.

That NYPD has crazy unchecked power compared to ATF? I was born in NY state, and lived NYC for several years.

Looks like we have another one, guys. I swear its like playing whack-a-mole.
it’s first post since joining 9 months ago and it’s an insult.

amazing.
 

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it’s first post since joining 9 months ago and it’s an insult.

amazing.
Yeah, I took a look at his profile myself.

I'd like to know two things ..

First, who is encouraging/paying these trolls to come here?
Two, is there an analogous organization that will pay me a few bucks to go troll the libtards on Twitter?
 
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Howdy all, been some time since I posted, but I have been lurking. As was stated earlier, this is not really a surprising turn of events. Those who have been active in 2nd Amendment issues have been warning about this for decades, it's one of the reasons the NRA (and other groups) have taken the approach that every issue needs to be fought as though the fate of the 2nd Amendment hangs in the balance.

Give these bastards an inch and they'll take a continent. If that was once known as fear-mongering, or exaggeration, it should now be incontrovertibly and indisputably clear that what we are seeing is what they have always desired. Soothing words, combined with sweet promises of safety, bliss and avarice work wonders on the intellectually challenged, and the ignorant.

When they can co-opt the flu virus, give it a new sexy name, then wrap it up as a pandemic.... and tens of millions of people just sheep-marched right into submission.... it's not surprising that they believe they can sell the concept of preventing crimes before they occur, which is, in effect, a police state. I will not be surprised if they label gun violence as a new pandemic.... and here is where I'll put the tin foil on (to amuse the wokesters should they come across this thread) by theorizing that the so-called number of mass shootings has spiked over the last 90-100 days, in part because mass-shootings, or the standards by which one is classified as such has been modified.... dumbed down if I may be so callous. There are some entities that are also assigning the spike in shootings to pent up frustrations as lockdowns are being eased. I'm not sure I buy into that, but it is not beyond plausibility as a contributing factor.

A lot of liberty was surrendered at the altar of safety during 2020. It's not going to be easy to get it back. It has been said that the current occupant of the White House got more than 80 million votes. I don't buy that, for several reasons, chief among them state by state registered voter numbers, updated in 2020, with some in 2021. By my calculations, the current occupant of the White House lost the election by somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-8 million votes, but that would still mean 67 million people voted for this crap.

That's the problem in a nutshell, as a lot, if not most of those people, will believe anything the government tells them. We are now almost 14 months into two weeks to flatten the curve, with no end in sight. Sorry if I meandered into the election mess and the covid cooties crap, my intent is not to resolve or re-fight those issues here, but to (hopefully) tie it in to where we now sit on the growing movement by the arm of the state to eradicate the 2nd Amendment.

To quote Mark Levin: we're staring tyranny in the face, and it's all hands on deck now.
 

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To quote Mark Levin: we're staring tyranny in the face, and it's all hands on deck now.
You're not incorrect in this, or your other comments.

I would add, however, that this has been the case since the late '90s. Not a lot of people knew about it, but prior to 9/11, and the rise of cell phones, NSA had their "Clipper chip" initiative which would have mandated that every hard-wired phone in the USA have a special encryption chip. It would enable secure voice calls between parties, while allowing the government to eavesdrop remotely (theoretically with a warrant). Mind you the time frame; before 9/11 and the "pressing need" to root up terrorists in our midst, and after the '94 ban to limit the sale and availability of "assault weapons." The whole thing died not due to a public outcry, but because dedicated people hacked the chip in a way that still allowed secure calls between parties, but which locked the government out entirely. So, the proposal was withdrawn, and the rise of cell phones obviated the "need" by the government for this, since they can just grab the signals out of the air now.

Then, of course, post 9/11 we get the PATRIOT Act. We've been staring tyranny in the face for a long time.
 
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