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I'd sure like to know what empirical research you've seen that leads you to your conclusions....
Which conclusions are those?

Clear that the boots on the ground have a tough gig? I was raised by a LEO.

Too many suits in police, and nearly all other large organizations who are detached from the work being done? I live in the world, and actually work jobs with several major corporations.

The idea that the concept of "crime prevention" implies scrutinizing citizens? It's not an observation to begin with. It's an understanding of an implication of ideas.

The idea that the mindset of police states are that the police are overlords over the people? I read history.

That NYPD has crazy unchecked power compared to ATF? I was born in NY state, and lived NYC for several years.

Looks like we have another one, guys. I swear its like playing whack-a-mole.

Well, to me "Crime prevention" means getting cops on foot in the business areas of the jurisdiction, it means attending public meetings with a note pad to get a feel for the priorities of the community, it means identifying the days of the week, times of day and the locations where the most serious crimes are committed and flooding those areas with uniformed patrol officer in vehicles, getting them out of their cars and having them approach, and talk to anyone out on the street they may find. People don't have to talk to cops under these circumstances, but those who do may be given a quick pat down for the safety of the officer and the citizen. There is a place for police intel and most of that kind of work is done through surveillance and analysis is done back in the office however, what you seem to be talking about is out of control federal law enforcement endangering individual liberties which is a whole different ball game from municipal, county and state Law Enforcement.

As far as "too many suits" is concerned, I'm sure your dad told you that most of the slings, arrows, and spears in Law Enforcement are behind the street cop, and this is just the part of the profession that the guys on the street have to deal with every day on the job.
 

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Well, to me "Crime prevention" means getting cops on foot in the business areas of the jurisdiction, it means attending public meetings with a note pad to get a feel for the priorities of the community, it means identifying the days of the week, times of day and the locations where the most serious crimes are committed and flooding those areas with uniformed patrol officer in vehicles, getting them out of their cars and having them approach, and talk to anyone out on the street they may find. People don't have to talk to cops under these circumstances, but those who do may be given a quick pat down for the safety of the officer and the citizen. There is a place for police intel and most of that kind of work is done through surveillance and analysis is done back in the office however, what you seem to be talking about is out of control federal law enforcement endangering individual liberties which is a whole different ball game from municipal, county and state Law Enforcement.

As far as "too many suits" is concerned, I'm sure your dad told you that most of the slings, arrows, and spears in Law Enforcement are behind the street cop, and this is just the part of the profession that the guys on the street have to deal with every day on the job.
Yeah, that is all well and good but it doesn't actually PREVENT crime. If a crime were prevented, then there would be no way to arrest anyone. Cops in the business area, or areas where serious crimes are committed may have some small deterrence effect, but really they are there to arrest people for crimes. So that isn't preventing crime, it is responding to crime and enforcing the law.

But the policing using stop & frisk and other sorts of tactics are EXACTLY the sort of "policing" I was referring to when I said it places officers in a different league than citizens.
 
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Yeah, that is all well and good but it doesn't actually PREVENT crime. If a crime were prevented, then there would be no way to arrest anyone. Cops in the business area, or areas where serious crimes are committed may have some small deterrence effect, but really they are there to arrest people for crimes. So that isn't preventing crime, it is responding to crime and enforcing the law.

But the policing using stop & frisk and other sorts of tactics are EXACTLY the sort of "policing" I was referring to when I said it places officers in a different league than citizens.
Yeah, that is all well and good but it doesn't actually PREVENT crime. If a crime were prevented, then there would be no way to arrest anyone. Cops in the business area, or areas where serious crimes are committed may have some small deterrence effect, but really they are there to arrest people for crimes. So that isn't preventing crime, it is responding to crime and enforcing the law.

But the policing using stop & frisk and other sorts of tactics are EXACTLY the sort of "policing" I was referring to when I said it places officers in a different league than citizens.

How do you speak with such authority? Where did you learn all of this stuff?
 

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How do you speak with such authority? Where did you learn all of this stuff?
In another life, making authoritative determinations based on facts, and reasonable inference was my job. I've learned from real life, and history using the one base fact that ought to be apparent: humans are animals. And, like any animal, our actions are predictable once you understand the needs of those animals.

But, your comments bely another point .. it doesn't appear as if you've actually spent any time in heavily-policed, high-crime areas. I have. And, I can tell you .. having cops roll the block every 45 minutes does nothing to prevent crime. At best it slows the cadence. Criminals learn the typical routes, and they'll wait until the po-po pass by, knowing that they have 30 or 45 minutes to find a victim, or do their dealings. Even before cell phones, on the street there was a simple protocol. Dude sees cops coming up the block, he raises a sign, someone a bit further up is keeping an eye on him, and when the sign is seen, he raises it himself. And long before the cops get 2 or 3 blocks ahead, people tuck out of the way to avoid them. In the age of cell phones, this process is 1000 times easier.

street doctor's response of "what rock have you been hiding under" is 100% on-point. If (big IF) you actually have spent time in high-crime areas, then you should consider yourself blessed that your naivety didn't get you killed.

The world isn't rational, or uplifting sunshine -- its a dark, gritty place. If you don't know this, then you're one of the privileged that benefits from the work of those that get their hands dirty, day in, day out -- and, quite frankly, I'm not all that interested in hearing the objections of people that haven't gotten knee-deep in some ****.
 

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In another life, making authoritative determinations based on facts, and reasonable inference was my job. I've learned from real life, and history using the one base fact that ought to be apparent: humans are animals. And, like any animal, our actions are predictable once you understand the needs of those animals.

But, your comments bely another point .. it doesn't appear as if you've actually spent any time in heavily-policed, high-crime areas. I have. And, I can tell you .. having cops roll the block every 45 minutes does nothing to prevent crime. At best it slows the cadence. Cri
In another life, making authoritative determinations based on facts, and reasonable inference was my job. I've learned from real life, and history using the one base fact that ought to be apparent: humans are animals. And, like any animal, our actions are predictable once you understand the needs of those animals.

But, your comments bely another point .. it doesn't appear as if you've actually spent any time in heavily-policed, high-crime areas. I have. And, I can tell you .. having cops roll the block every 45 minutes does nothing to prevent crime. At best it slows the cadence. Criminals learn the typical routes, and they'll wait until the po-po pass by, knowing that they have 30 or 45 minutes to find a victim, or do their dealings. Even before cell phones, on the street there was a simple protocol. Dude sees cops coming up the block, he raises a sign, someone a bit further up is keeping an eye on him, and when the sign is seen, he raises it himself. And long before the cops get 2 or 3 blocks ahead, people tuck out of the way to avoid them. In the age of cell phones, this process is 1000 times easier.

street doctor's response of "what rock have you been hiding under" is 100% on-point. If (big IF) you actually have spent time in high-crime areas, then you should consider yourself blessed that your naivety didn't get you killed.

The world isn't rational, or uplifting sunshine -- its a dark, gritty place. If you don't know this, then you're one of the privileged that benefits from the work of those that get their hands dirty, day in, day out -- and, quite frankly, I'm not all that interested in hearing the objections of people that haven't gotten knee-deep in some ****.
minals learn the typical routes, and they'll wait until the po-po pass by, knowing that they have 30 or 45 minutes to find a victim, or do their dealings. Even before cell phones, on the street there was a simple protocol. Dude sees cops coming up the block, he raises a sign, someone a bit further up is keeping an eye on him, and when the sign is seen, he raises it himself. And long before the cops get 2 or 3 blocks ahead, people tuck out of the way to avoid them. In the age of cell phones, this process is 1000 times easier.

street doctor's response of "what rock have you been hiding under" is 100% on-point. If (big IF) you actually have spent time in high-crime areas, then you should consider yourself blessed that your naivety didn't get you killed.

The world isn't rational, or uplifting sunshine -- its a dark, gritty place. If you don't know this, then you're one of the privileged that benefits from the work of those that get their hands dirty, day in, day out -- and, quite frankly, I'm not all that interested in hearing the objections of people that haven't gotten knee-deep in some ****.

Ya know, my Dad was a WWII combat Veteran, like most of the men of his generation he didn't talk too much about details (I gained a lot by listening to my Mom) so I would never presume to speak with any authority about combat actions against the enemy. But then right out of High School I joined the Army and volunteered for combat; I saw a good bit of close quarter action as in the 3/5 Cavalry on the DMZ ( I was 11E) between 68 and 69 so though I couldn't say that I know everything about combat actions against our enemies, I do know a lot about it. Fortunately a by product of having such experience as I do is that I can very easily spot a phony "valor thief" (one of the lowest forms of life on this planet) from ten miles. Incidentally when Dad and I finally did compare notes, it turned out that I had spent more time in combat action in Vietnam than he did in France.

Dad wasn't a Cop (he was a public school teacher) so I had to learn what I know about policing by applying for work with a major east coast city police department where I started as a foot patrolmen in the minority business community in my District for my first year, I learned my trade from the finest cops in the world (many were WWII Combat Veterans. After eight years in the trenches in some of the poorer minority neighborhoods of any city you'll find on the East Coast, I went on to finish college with a double undergrad degree from Drake and a Master's Degree from University of Arizona. I resumed my career working Law Enforcement on the US/Mexico Border for my last twenty one (and change) years, and retired as a Patrol Sgt.

Now I wouldn't dare say that I know everything there is to know about police work, but I do know a lot about community policing, and I do know a lot about the federal agencies that I've worked with many times over my nearly thirty year career as a Cop.

One of the great things about being a Cop for as long as I was, is that I learned to be pretty good at sizing up the content of peoples' character in fairly short order (it saved my life on many occasions), even after just listening to just a few words in dialogue or a few written sentences. So, I have spent a fair amount of my life living in what most rational people would consider dangerous situations. I haven't been "living under a rock," I do know a lot about how brutal the real world is and son (Sickness), I know a horse dung artist when I encounter one. You are not in a position to lecture or teach anyone anything...
 

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You are not in a position to lecture or teach anyone anything...
Where did I claim to be military, or law enforcement? What I said was "In another life, making authoritative determinations based on facts, and reasonable inference was my job."

If the words "authoritative" or "authority" automatically make you think I must be claiming to be LEO, or if someone speaking plainly and frankly with you gets your ass hairs up, then I might suggest that you're exhibiting precisely the sort of mentality I spoke of where cops can sometimes adopt where they end up seeing civilians as a sort of underclass.

My background is in mathematics & statistics. For about 10 years, I led a diverse team of people who specialized in analysis of organizations, and organizational behavior. The firm we worked for did consulting for many large corporations, government agencies, law enforcement departments, non-profits, you name it. When an organization wanted to know if their policies or procedures were getting quality results, or were getting them the results they wanted, they would hire firms like ours.

We'd hang with and observe people doing their job at all levels of the organization. It was this work that led me to make my claim about their being a disconnect between the suits and the boots on the ground. It's true in nearly all large organizations unless special steps are taken to avoid it. It's not about "being behind" the street cop, or wanting your employees to work up the ladder, do well for themselves or whatever. There is simply a disconnect in the work being done, the economic realities, political landscape, etc. But I don't want to get too far afield here, so I'll just move on.

I'll take your claim about being a cop at face value. But it puzzles me because after riding along with, and talking with tons of officers over the years I can't remember any that had your sort of viewpoint. I suppose there must have been some, but the main thrust I got was that they had zero illusions that they are really preventing crime. Rather, they clean up and respond after the fact, and they watch the revolving door go round and round, and generally deal with the same people time and again.

Edit to add: as I think on it, I suppose there is virtue in the idea that LEO departments that contracted firms like ours likely saw problems, and areas for improvement. So, my selection set has a bias to it; but so does anyone's.

Maybe we're hung up on the words of "crime prevention" here? I dunno. Whatever.
 

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A pattern is beginning to develop here in the forum. Seems we may have been infiltrated by Manchurian members. Some post nothing for weeks, months even years in some cases then boom, all of the sudden instant experts.
 

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Where did I claim to be military, or law enforcement? What I said was "In another life, making authoritative determinations based on facts, and reasonable inference was my job."

If the words "authoritative" or "authority" automatically make you think I must be claiming to be LEO, or if someone speaking plainly and frankly with you gets your ass hairs up, then I might suggest that you're exhibiting precisely the sort of mentality I spoke of where cops can sometimes adopt where they end up seeing civilians as a sort of underclass.

My background is in mathematics & statistics. For about 10 years, I led a diverse team of people who specialized in analysis of organizations, and organizational behavior. The firm we worked for did consulting for many large corporations, government agencies, law enforcement departments, non-profits, you name it. When an organization wanted to know if their policies or procedures were getting quality results, or were getting them the results they wanted, they would hire firms like ours.

We'd hang with and observe people doing their job at all levels of the organization. It was this work that led me to make my claim about their being a disconnect between the suits and the boots on the ground. It's true in nearly all large organizations unless special steps are taken to avoid it. It's not about "being behind" the street cop, or wanting your employees to work up the ladder, do well for themselves or whatever. There is simply a disconnect in the work being done, the economic realities, political landscape, etc. But I don't want to get too far afield here, so I'll just move on.

I'll take your claim about being a cop at face value. But it puzzles me because after riding along with, and talking with tons of officers over the years I can't remember any that had your sort of viewpoint. I suppose there must have been some, but the main thrust I got was that they had zero illusions that they are really preventing crime. Rather, they clean up and respond after the fact, and they watch the revolving door go round and round, and generally deal with the same people time and again.

Edit to add: as I think on it, I suppose there is virtue in the idea that LEO departments that contracted firms like ours likely saw problems, and areas for improvement. So, my selection set has a bias to it; but so does anyone's.

Maybe we're hung up on the words of "crime prevention" here? I dunno. Whatever.
So you worked for one of the dime a dozen consulting firms that departments hire to give the public impression that they're cleaning up a recent ugly public mess, or that some politician/or appointee hires to make the public think that they're cleaning up a perceived mess, or even possibly justify a raise for departmental personnel. I know how your game is played because I've witnessed it a dozen times or more over the years. You compile your report that goes in front of the city counsel or the county board and then it gets filed while none of the recommendations are ever taken seriously. It's kind of surprising to me that you don't have a Law Enforcement background, these firms usually hire former or retired cops just for the credibility they bring to the table. So you did some ride-alongs and got to see what the officer wanted you to see and he pumped your empty head up with only what he wanted you to know. This is what gives you your "complex view of Law Enforcement?" LOL!

What? You don't think that I've talked with "tons of officers over the years?" The fact is that being one of them, I speak their language, you don't speak the language and you don't and never did hear the entire story of the realities that Cops live with every day and night. You were nothing more that what used to be called an "efficiency expert" and believe me pal, what ever organizations you may have consulted, they went right back to their prior organizational culture as soon as you walked out of the door. Police work is reactive mostly however there is a lot of pro active work that can be done, that's how Rudy cleaned up that cesspool they call NYC. Nobody can prevent all criminal activity (I never insinuated that anyone could) but good policing can sure frustrate the hell out of criminals and curtail their activities.

You talked about "too many suits" and people who don't know anything about the job making decisions, that was one of your conclusions I spoke of. Didn't you mention that you "were raised by a LEO?" What need was there to mention that unless you were trying to add credibility to your flatulence? Hell, you really aren't making any distinctions between federal and state, municipal and country level law enforcement while anyone with experience knows they're as different as day and night.

Like I said sonny, I can spot a phony valor thief for miles, and I can also spot a horse dung artist (same-same b/s artist) equally as far. Maybe you've got a handful of chumps on this site suckered in, but I'm the real thing and I'm here to tell ya that you are in no position to lecture or teach anyone-anything, because you don't know what you're talking about.
 

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^^^And here we go...again!^^^

So then Johannes allegedly of the Black Knights, genius, my father was also a WWII combat veteran, 10th Mountain Alpine Sniper. He made me promise him I wouldn't become a sniper, I didn't, I became a Ranger (1/75). It is actually called Close Quarters Combat or Battle (CQC/CQB) anyone with a dual major Bachelors degree, a Masters and combat time in-country would know that. I can guarantee you I have seen my fair share of IYF (in your face) up close and personal (UCAP) with pistols and knives combat. I too can spot a "valor thief" only from a greater distance than you. Just for clarification how does an 11E (armor crewman) in armored cavalry (3/5) engage in CQC, was it attempting to parallel park a tank in traffic? Do yourself, the planet and the forum a favor Grandpa, take another 9 month nap.

I also spent more than a decade training tactical LEO's so I also know the lingo. Old man, you were no closer to a COP than a school crossing guard. Your nurse should be bringing you your meds soon, have a good nap.

Oh and since you brought it up Senor Flatulista, indulge in your own flatulence under your own sheets. We need not smell your malodorous self now or in the future but please do continue mastering the skin flute...
 

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So you worked for one of the dime a dozen consulting firms that departments hire to give the public impression that they're cleaning up a recent ugly public mess, or that some politician/or appointee hires to make the public think that they're cleaning up a perceived mess, or even possibly justify a raise for departmental personnel.
No. To my knowledge it was wasn't because of a recent public mess; but I may be wrong about that.

You compile your report that goes in front of the city counsel or the county board and then it gets filed while none of the recommendations are ever taken seriously. It's kind of surprising to me that you don't have a Law Enforcement background, these firms usually hire former or retired cops just for the credibility they bring to the table.
I don't know if governmental agencies or what not ever implemented the recommendations. I do know that several corporations and NPOs did; we got several followups there to re-assess some time afterwards.

As I said, the team I led was rather diverse. We had former LEOs, behavioral scientists, chemists, psychologists, all sorts of people with different expertise.

So you did some ride-alongs and got to see what the officer wanted you to see and he pumped your empty head up with only what he wanted you to know. This is what gives you your "complex view of Law Enforcement?" LOL!
I'm fully aware of the possibilities of people mis-representing things in situations like this. In fact, we had some methodologies to account for out-right liars, and the fact that people will unconsciously change their behavior, as well.

What? You don't think that I've talked with "tons of officers over the years?"
Now, just where would you get that dumb idea? Where did I say that?

You were nothing more that what used to be called an "efficiency expert" and believe me pal, what ever organizations you may have consulted, they went right back to their prior organizational culture as soon as you walked out of the door.
Like I said, that may be true for LEO agencies, or certain places with very embedded organizational culture, sure. But, I can tell you, more than a few called us back for follow-ups because they were happy with the results of the recommendations.

Police work is reactive mostly however there is a lot of pro active work that can be done, that's how Rudy cleaned up that cesspool they call NYC. Nobody can prevent all criminal activity (I never insinuated that anyone could) but good policing can sure frustrate the hell out of criminals and curtail their activities.
See. Now this is where I think we have a vocabulary problem. I didn't mean to imply that it isn't possible to frustrate criminals and limit their activities. Obviously that is true, and people do it, day in, day out. But, stay with me here for a second; if they are CRIMINALS, then by definition, they are engaged in CRIME, right? So, if they are committing crimes, then its difficult for me to consider this "crime prevention", dig?

You talked about "too many suits" and people who don't know anything about the job making decisions, that was one of your conclusions I spoke of.
Yeah, and? You're telling me that everyone your mayor appointed to make decisions over your LEO agency was of sound judgement and knew what the hell was going on? Hey, maybe, but I'd expect you could imagine that many places have the exact opposite situation. This is one of the things that my grandfather (that's the LEO who raised me) griped about the most.

Didn't you mention that you "were raised by a LEO?" What need was there to mention that unless you were trying to add credibility to your flatulence?
You asked how I was forming my opinions, remember? If you didn't ask, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Hell, you really aren't making any distinctions between federal and state, municipal and country level law enforcement while anyone with experience knows they're as different as day and night.
Correct, because for the general dynamic I'm speaking on, there is a disconnect between leadership and the people doing the work. It pervades government, law enforcement, large corporations, and hell even the local department store managers probably don't have a lot of understanding of what is exactly involved in unloading the trucks (unless they are manager of the loading dock).

but I'm the real thing and I'm here to tell ya that you are in no position to lecture or teach anyone-anything, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Really? That's why you're here? I'm honored. Well, you've said it. So now you're in the position to go piss off to somewhere else too, right?
 

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@sickness, Brother don't waste another word on this clown. Yet another "expert" who as you know are climbing out of the walls here like insects. I think we've got forum turdmites, better call ForumOrkin!
 

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@sickness, Brother don't waste another word on this clown. Yet another "expert" who as you know are climbing out of the walls here like insects. I think we've got forum turdmites, better call ForumOrkin!

Speaking of insects climbing out of the walls. Just some food for thought as more weirdos come around.
 

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Speaking of insects climbing out of the walls. Just some food for thought as more weirdos come around.
You mean like the SPLC? Looks like they're going after the 1st as well as the second.
 

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You mean like the SPLC? Looks like they're going after the 1st as well as the second.
Yup! Only, if the Biden administration gets their way, I expect this sort of thing to ramp up quite a lot. There will be money at play to hire professional trolls.

In 2015, if you told me Trump would win, I'd have giggled.
If you told me that by 2020, I'd be voting for Trump, I'd have laughed.
If you told me that by 2021 I'd be praying for his return in 2024, I'd have laughed hard enough to die of a brain hemorrhage.

And yet, here we are.
 

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Call ForumOrkin!! LMAO
 

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You're not incorrect in this, or your other comments.

I would add, however, that this has been the case since the late '90s. Not a lot of people knew about it, but prior to 9/11, and the rise of cell phones, NSA had their "Clipper chip" initiative which would have mandated that every hard-wired phone in the USA have a special encryption chip. It would enable secure voice calls between parties, while allowing the government to eavesdrop remotely (theoretically with a warrant). Mind you the time frame; before 9/11 and the "pressing need" to root up terrorists in our midst, and after the '94 ban to limit the sale and availability of "assault weapons." The whole thing died not due to a public outcry, but because dedicated people hacked the chip in a way that still allowed secure calls between parties, but which locked the government out entirely. So, the proposal was withdrawn, and the rise of cell phones obviated the "need" by the government for this, since they can just grab the signals out of the air now.

Then, of course, post 9/11 we get the PATRIOT Act. We've been staring tyranny in the face for a long time.
Agreed. I defended George W. Bush against some of the over the top tactics deployed against him after signing the Patriot Act, and in hindsight that was a mistake. While I shared the concerns of the critics, that in the wrong hands (think the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.), I also believed that, as in previous times of national crises, the meat of the Act would be temporary. I made two mistakes in that assessment: While Bush may have had the best intentions, the Swamp Rat bureaucracy was another matter, which feeds directly into my second problem, which would be the attention span of the American voter, which would be the ultimate check against abuses.

Bush, in hindsight, was a tool. Those same agencies, I believe, used WMD to frame the political trap that hounded Bush for the remainder of his Presidency. That was considered a wild-eyed conspiracy theory for many years, but the advent of the Crossfire Hurricane investigation against President Trump pretty much validated the sinister machinations of our security agencies. The same people that participated in that, were also involved in the WMD setup, and don't forget their ties to James Bulger. (We can't use his nickname?) They are corrupt, and have been for a long time, even pre-dating the Patriot Act.

I have come to believe nothing these people say, and believe them capable of anything imaginable. We could get into many topics: the Vegas shooting, the Nashville bombing.... I have never seen two high profile incidents disappear from the public discourse as quickly as both did, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

To use a Walking Dead analogy, and in reference to the tongue-in-cheek memes about the impending zombie apocalypse, the zombies are already here, we see them everywhere, as they put aside all the immediate concerns of daily life, in favor of their damn cell phones.
 

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@sickness, Brother don't waste another word on this clown. Yet another "expert" who as you know are climbing out of the walls here like insects. I think we've got forum turdmites, better call ForumOrkin!
Yeah, after catching up since my post of last week, I have to concur. It's a circular argument (tactic?), designed to go nowhere while giving the appearance of depth and the aura of conversational.
 
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