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I do not know if Cliven Bundy is within the letter of the law or if he is outside it or even if the laws are legal, just or fair.
I guess my question is why did the raid occur it the first place if all other avenues had been explored?
By law, I am allowed to use violence only as a last resort and I am protected by the law. I guess the Feds have no compunction to do the same as they rule from above those of us whom are underlings. I want to know who jumped the order and ordered a violent raid against one of my brother citizens? I want them investigated, tried, fired and sent to jail. It is the only fair and just thing to do.
Are you a person far from Nevada who thinks this does not pertain to you, your family, neighborhood or state? Well guess what?! It is coming to a place near you sooner than you would prefer it.
Again, I do not know if Cliven Bundy is within his rights but I know the Feds are way out of line.
 

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I do not know if Cliven Bundy is within the letter of the law or if he is outside it or even if the laws are legal, just or fair.
I guess my question is why did the raid occur it the first place if all other avenues had been explored?
By law, I am allowed to use violence only as a last resort and I am protected by the law. I guess the Feds have no compunction to do the same as they rule from above those of us whom are underlings. I want to know who jumped the order and ordered a violent raid against one of my brother citizens? I want them investigated, tried, fired and sent to jail. It is the only fair and just thing to do.
Are you a person far from Nevada who thinks this does not pertain to you, your family, neighborhood or state? Well guess what?! It is coming to a place near you sooner than you would prefer it.
Again, I do not know if Cliven Bundy is within his rights but I know the Feds are way out of line.
Again, the more i read about this, the more it pisses me off. I am not blaming you^^^ but this is a TOTAL mischaracterization of this event. Total. Bundy has been aware of this for 20 years. He was given notice 6 months prior that this was going to happen. And to be honest, the more i read about pipe bombs going off in government offices in Nevada over the past 20 years, i see why the feds had reason to be SUPER WARY of this. I don't excuse some of the tacticts they used. But i can CERTAINLY see why the approached it in the fashion they did. Again, the DISINFORMATION is STUNNING in this event, and it should make EVERYONE very VERY leery.....

PS. Here is a fantastic timeline with a very detailed chronicling of events. Plus a sweet picture of a real american hero.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ween-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think I see where your coming from keystone. I have seen a lot of the misinformation you are talking about, and I have been pulled in by some of it myself. After some consideration a lot of it I dismissed, but I still think there is more to this than a tortoise. I just don't see how after more than 140 years of cattle grazing this land, the indigenous animals are having problems just in the last 20-30 years. The racing and other recreational activities with dirt bikes and ATV's I could see causing a problem more so than grazing cattle.

It also seems keystone, from my lurking around the internet, you were correct that it is considered Federal land. At least as far as the Feds are concerned. If that is the case it also looks like the Feds own or control more than 87% of the state! WTF? That means there is only 13% left for the State of Nevada, personal property, and business and industry combined. They should rename Nevada Federalantia or something.

I live in VA. and our Fed owned property was something like 9%. With all the military bases...Langley, 2 NASA research facilities, A.P. Hill, Marine Amphib base, Quantico, Norfolk naval air station, CIA headquarters, FBI, DEA, Federal reserve, and on and on... The Feds only own 9%! Why do the Feds need to control all that land out west? Can't the states take care of the majority of it themselves? Sure the Feds could help and provide support for conservation and such, but WOW. If they want to claim some land, How about they claim the southern border and protect that! I feel that would be a much better use of my tax money than keeping some farmer from doing what he has been peacefully doing for many generations.

Anyway, I still think this looks like big government and special interest groups forcing out the last of the ranchers in that area for whatever reason, but it probably has very little to do with the Tortoise.


Something along these lines I have always wondered about here in VA. is there is 5,000 some odd acre, public hunting lands near here. They are mostly wooded but have a number of various size fields throughout. Those fields are supposed to be planted with a diverse crop of grains and other plants beneficial to the wildlife. This is supposed to be paid for with taxes and licensing. Instead every year I see profit crops like feed corn, and soy beans being planted because the Dept. of game and inland fisheries leases out the land to farmers. But who gets the money? It's public land, and its not being used the way it was intended. anyway just my little local rant. Maybe there is a perfectly good reason they are leasing it out to farmers. I have not been able to find out thus far.

I just hope it works itself out without anyone getting hurt.
 

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TIME LINE FROM THE GOVT WASHINGTON POST.

TALK ABOUT A LIBERAL DISINFORMATION AGENCY.

lol

LEARN A LITTLE AGENDA 21 AND COMMUNISM ABOUT CONTROLLING THE FOOD SUPPLY.
Are there any small farmers left?
Does monsanto conrol all seed technology?
are Chinese buying up communities?

Are our borders a porous joke? Bags will not be allowed at the latest Boston Marathon , but Illegals will.

Do we need proof for sinus medicine but not to vote.
YOU worry about some farmer whose family arrived way before our Tyrannical Govt and being the only farmer left worry about his fees.

When a criminal lawless govt spent 200 million on a failed pathetic website proclaiming the stealing of your doctor.


Seems many Americans better get their priorities straight before they have nothing left.
 

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“Give us all your cattle to pay the fines we imposed on you to save a tortoise we are currently euthanizing… Or we will shoot your family.”
 

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TIME LINE FROM THE GOVT WASHINGTON POST.

TALK ABOUT A LIBERAL DISINFORMATION AGENCY.
Don't believe it because they say it. Don't believe it because i say it. Do your own damn research. But go ahead and let me know when you find something wrong with it. Otherwise, i'd suggest you keep your emotions in check.
 

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Well, that is one way to thoroughly mischaracterize the situation.....
Its a quote from the article. Honostly I think there is a point to be made here. The feds sending dozens of highly armed individuals to "defuse" a situation sends exactly this kind of message.
 

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I believe this situation has very little to do with a tortoise. This has to do with the shell gas formation. The FEDS "own" the land, and I think that they actually believe that means them personally, and they will profit from the development of this. We the people, will not get a portion of the massive profits from this development. And it will be problematic to do this with thousands of cows running around, much less they won't have anything to eat. I read that Harry Reid made a multi billion dollar deal with this over development and fracking of this land. I am currently in the center of this on the east side now and the money on this discovery is unbelievable. Apparently the geological surveys have told them shell formations also exist there.
 

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Again, the more i read about this, the more it pisses me off. I am not blaming you^^^ but this is a TOTAL mischaracterization of this event. Total. Bundy has been aware of this for 20 years. He was given notice 6 months prior that this was going to happen. And to be honest, the more i read about pipe bombs going off in government offices in Nevada over the past 20 years, i see why the feds had reason to be SUPER WARY of this. I don't excuse some of the tacticts they used. But i can CERTAINLY see why the approached it in the fashion they did. Again, the DISINFORMATION is STUNNING in this event, and it should make EVERYONE very VERY leery.....

PS. Here is a fantastic timeline with a very detailed chronicling of events. Plus a sweet picture of a real american hero.....

Everything you need to know about the long fight between Cliven Bundy and the federal government
Yah, I see your point the federal leviathon has every right to land it has no deed to. Drink da kool-aid brother. I think the government is again in the wrong here, you think they are in the right. Time will tell.
 

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It seems the complaint is that Bundy isn't paying the grazing fees. Who in tarnation ever said grazing fees was appropriate. They just make up a fee for everything as they go. I don't frickin think so !There is a fee and tax for everything. It's just a way for the Federal Government to extract more money from the citizens so they can squander it away. It doesn't matter what it is, the government wants to tax it or charge a fee for it. If they can't run all their stupid programs off the excessive income taxes I already pay, then they need to quit letting Presidents spend millions on vacations, and spend the tax dollars more wisely. The BLM has been granted the right to do as they please basically. Whatever they say goes ? A Federal Judge ruling in favor of corrupt Federal politics is all this is a case of. Bundy raises cattle for citizens to eat. There are no fees needed to let cattle eat grass. BLM needs to be dismantled. They are useless. Period,
 

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Yah, I see your point the federal leviathon has every right to land it has no deed to. Drink da kool-aid brother. I think the government is again in the wrong here, you think they are in the right. Time will tell.
Kool-aid? I think not. Again, LOTS of MISINFORMATION here. The feds absolutely do own the land. So, thats you, and thats me, that own the land. Not bundy. Not the state of nevada.
 

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It seems the complaint is that Bundy isn't paying the grazing fees. Who in tarnation ever said grazing fees was appropriate. They just make up a fee for everything as they go. I don't frickin think so !There is a fee and tax for everything. It's just a way for the Federal Government to extract more money from the citizens so they can squander it away. It doesn't matter what it is, the government wants to tax it or charge a fee for it. If they can't run all their stupid programs off the excessive income taxes I already pay, then they need to quit letting Presidents spend millions on vacations, and spend the tax dollars more wisely. The BLM has been granted the right to do as they please basically. Whatever they say goes ? A Federal Judge ruling in favor of corrupt Federal politics is all this is a case of. Bundy raises cattle for citizens to eat. There are no fees needed to let cattle eat grass. BLM needs to be dismantled. They are useless. Period,
Bundy had ZERO problems paying the fees for 60 or so years. When you use something that doesn't belong to you, you should have to pay for it. We can argue about the BLM and our excessive government all we want. We probably agree on most things. But paying for a lease is as old as the hills. Nothing new or strange about that.
 

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I believe this situation has very little to do with a tortoise. This has to do with the shell gas formation. The FEDS "own" the land, and I think that they actually believe that means them personally, and they will profit from the development of this. We the people, will not get a portion of the massive profits from this development. And it will be problematic to do this with thousands of cows running around, much less they won't have anything to eat. I read that Harry Reid made a multi billion dollar deal with this over development and fracking of this land. I am currently in the center of this on the east side now and the money on this discovery is unbelievable. Apparently the geological surveys have told them shell formations also exist there.
Why would the feds be interested in a gas play, when they won't let anybody TOUCH the millions of other acres that sit over ALREADY PROVEN gas plays? And are doing everything they can to stop fracking as it is? That one just doesn't make a lot of sense.
 

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Why would the feds be interested in a gas play, when they won't let anybody TOUCH the millions of other acres that sit over ALREADY PROVEN gas plays? And are doing everything they can to stop fracking as it is? That one just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Because the infrastructure is not completely in place yet. There are currently three crackers being built with-in 30 miles of me and the largest state of the art total refinery in the U.S.A. to start this summer, a multi-billion dollar project. The big inch gas, oil pipe line that just came out of the mid-west conveniently ends in my back yard (not literally, 10 miles away). And now the money the gas,oil co. are paying is realistic. They are paying 10 K/acre just to sign a lease and that's the chump change compared to the royalties coming in for 50 to 75 years. The FEDS have seen more new millionaires in the last three years in the Ohio Valley region than any ware on Earth, and they want in on it !
 

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Kool-aid? I think not. Again, LOTS of MISINFORMATION here. The feds absolutely do own the land. So, thats you, and thats me, that own the land. Not bundy. Not the state of nevada.
The Deed please...Show me the proof. Got you....Hmmmm... Mr. show me! You do need to read some history... keystone, fn bro...If you don’t know why armed federal agents rounding up and selling or even killing a private citizen’s cattle is a problem, then you need some serious education in what the purpose of the Constitution is. Please find it and read it. Read the Declaration of Independence. Read the Federalist papers. Please.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Unalienable rights…unable to be separated from us. Inherent.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Hmmmm... To secure these rights, governments are instituted by men; see not the other way around...Ones world view here is imperative; keystone....deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...The CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED! Where is the notion or idea that these rights are derived from the Government; Hmmmm....or granted by it. In fact, if you keep reading, it makes this point very clear...Men institute these governments—we design them and create them—to ensure the safety of the rights that we inherently have. Where does this government get its just power? From the "Consent Of The Governed". From you and I saying, yes, we consent to be governed, as long as you govern justly. You seem upset that Mr. Bundy didn’t pay his grazing fees. What you seem to be missing is that the fees themselves were unconstitutional. Therefore, We The People see this government is not just and is destructive. “…whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends,” Whenever the government destroys rights instead of safeguarding them. See, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it…This is our duty pard.

That is why folks went out there and stood with the Bundy family. That's why there seems to be so much disinformation out there; however, the truth is simply staring us in the face. Since when is Bundy a threat to national security? Does his refusal to be extorted by the feds give them clearance to post snipers and militarized rangers with their sights targeting American citizens protesting his situation? To cordon off an area and say that “here’s where your free speech zone is”? My free speech zone extends from Coast to coast...Bundy’s war isn’t about whether or not he paid grazing fees; in fact, anyone who’s done the research already knows that. It’s not about turtles, either. This is what angers you? Really! You are missing the forest because of the trees...This is about whether or not the federal government has the right to treat you and me or Mr. Bundy, like they own them. Do they? Hmmmm? Do they have the right to show up with military force to your home and force your compliance with unjust laws? Are we free or slaves to a national government?

The truth is right out front on this one pard, you are choosing not to see it. The federal government answers to us, and they need a very clear reminder of that. What you will not see in any of these written documents is the idea that these rights are derived from the Federal Government, or granted by it. That is what this is about.

See it.
 
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