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Discussion Starter #1
I was driving near the border today and got pulled over by a border patrol agent while driving at speed limit. He alleged that I had exceeded the speed limit while passing a slow car (this may or may not be true, but that is besides the point of my question). I did not know that these federal agents had the power to stop people based on solely a state law violation (at least here in Arizona). This (http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2012/07/25/10-50249.pdf) sets the precedent that they can't but I wasn't going to bring up the legality of the stop until I had done some research. I respect what these guys do day in and day out but a state/traffic violation followed by threats of tickets and inspecting car registration and drivers license seem like an expansion of their designated role - which I am not for. What do you guys think?
 

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That is a tricky one. I am not sure how the case you cite is on point that they can't stop at all. (On quick scanning) The issue in that case seems to be whether they had a reasonable basis to pull someone over based on suspicions that the driver is an alien or drug smuggler. It is not clear to me that this prohibits them from pulling you over for speeding per se. In other words, I think what got these agents in a twist is that they said they pulled this guy over because his behavior (such as speeding) constituted a basis for reasonable suspicion of something else (i.e. being an alien or drug smuggler). Their reason for doing what they did is really at the center of this case.

As to whether they can pull you over based solely on observing a state or local level violation, what prevents them? Suppose a local police officer found an item (say an illegal machine gun, a still making alcohol, etc.) that violated Federal law but did not necessarily explicitly violate state law in their state. Couldn't they detain the person with the gun and the gun, even though it is a Federal beef? If so, doesn't that cut the other way as well?

What the Feds certainly cannot do is prosecute you at the Federal level for speeding. And the local officer in my examples would have to hand the person over to the Feds.
 

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Let me pose it slightly differently: In the case you cite, suppose that the Feds held that guy at roadside until a state trooper arrived and ticketed the guy for speeding. I seriously doubt he could get his ticket tossed in state court simply based on the fact that it was Feds who initially pulled him over.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
AD, your point makes sense but I am concerned about the 4th amendment issues as well as expansion of powers for a very narrowly defined federal law enforcement agency. I guess the reasons that BP and ICE can interact with me has to be a very well defined and narrowly scoped set of circumstances (like border crossing or suspicion of violating immigration laws or a checkpoint, which I personally feel does not meet the 4th amendment test but supreme court disagrees with me in this matter). Anything beyond that, I feel I should be able to challenge it and any prosecutions that result from such a pull-over become null and void due to it being a fruit of poison tree. Maybe I am overreaching.

In the case of the guy referenced, he does not volunteer a search, which is not automatic in a traffic stop - that falls in ine with my own reasoning and any search performed illegally cant be used.
 

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There is a full, confirmed "constitution exemption" zone that exists 100 miles from every US border. Thanks, Obama!

In these zones, you have no legal rights (excepting that a law that breaks the constitution should be considered invalid and nullified, but that's another argument) that protect you from any type of search and seizure.

Long story short -- if you're within 100 miles of a border, they can stop you and search you for no reason.

Image-Map.gif

https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone
 

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Did you receive a citation for speeding???

I 'm sure he just wanted to check you out. You were probably in an area where there are many potential illegal's.
 

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Isn't it grand that Florida in its entirety is a Constitution-free-zone, I've got to get out of this State before it's too late.
 

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This just went to Federal Court. Border patrol pulled someone over who was driving in an unnaturally stiff upright position with their hands at 2 and 10 o'clock, and this driving position was deemed 'suspicious', so they were pulled over, and found a joint in the ashtray.

There was a request to throw the case out on the basis that sitting straight up was not reasonable cause. The courts found that it WAS reasonable cause, because the posture looked suspicious.

Federal court rules that stiff driving posture is suspicious behavior | Police State USA
 

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There is a full, confirmed "constitution exemption" zone that exists 100 miles from every US border. Thanks, Obama!

In these zones, you have no legal rights (excepting that a law that breaks the constitution should be considered invalid and nullified, but that's another argument) that protect you from any type of search and seizure.

Long story short -- if you're within 100 miles of a border, they can stop you and search you for no reason.

View attachment 27630

https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone
Well, clearly they can't do whatever they want, per this ruling Ahmed cites. And there is a long line of SCOTUS case law (back to Almeida-Sanchez v. United States) that the government can declare whatever the hell they want, but the courts have generally upheld much more restrictive definitions of the border.

I suspect that if they push this case law restricting their scope will emerge.

Also, this is a Bush administration development.

In all of these cases (Ahmed's, the hands on the wheel case) the issue is one that has long been debated regardless of the level of law enforcement: what constitutes "reasonable" suspicion?
 

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This just went to Federal Court. Border patrol pulled someone over who was driving in an unnaturally stiff upright position with their hands at 2 and 10 o'clock, and this driving position was deemed 'suspicious', so they were pulled over, and found a joint in the ashtray.

There was a request to throw the case out on the basis that sitting straight up was not reasonable cause. The courts found that it WAS reasonable cause, because the posture looked suspicious.

Federal court rules that stiff driving posture is suspicious behavior | Police State USA
Well there goes the drug cartels latest strategy of putting "Driver Education Student Driver On Board" stickers on there runners cars. :lol:
 

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There is a full, confirmed "constitution exemption" zone that exists 100 miles from every US border. Thanks, Obama!

In these zones, you have no legal rights (excepting that a law that breaks the constitution should be considered invalid and nullified, but that's another argument) that protect you from any type of search and seizure.

Long story short -- if you're within 100 miles of a border, they can stop you and search you for no reason.

View attachment 27630

https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone
Knew there was a reason I never visited these areas.
 

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Border Patrol are not normally post certified so they generally can't give a state ticket. Besides they wouldn't know what court to write the citation in.

Though I have seen a BLM guy pull someone over on the freeway, but I don't know what for.
 
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