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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hey guys,

Im new to the forum and have already had a warm welcome and some good information. So I want to give back by giving you guys some information on a product that hasn't gotten a lot of exposure yet from what I can tell. Its a conversion kit that will turn your handgun into a very nice, compact, tactical looking carbine. This kit is made by Command Arms and distributed by Citadel Gun and Safe out of Las Vegas. They are exceptional people to work with.

This carbine conversion kit works with a handful of popular handguns, and I was very pleased to see that it was available for my Beretta PX4 storm.

My review of the product is limited as I have been afraid to take it to indoor ranges in the San Francisco Bay Area due to its compact size and general lack of knowledge about he product. What I an tell you is about installation and look and feel. Its mostly polymer with heavy gauge picatinny rails on the top and sides, a heavy muzzle, and plenty of room for peripherals. You can order flip up iron sights separately which work nicely, and there are a few other accessories available for it, as well as a magnetic vehicle mount they are workign on *who knows what that looks like but if it works with my motorcycle its on). The buttstock holds an extra clip which completes the mean look and usability of the kit.

Installation takes a little getting used to, but once you run through it once or twice you realize how easy and fun this device is, and it also begins to break in nicely. Basically the entire body clam-shells open, you mount a cocking lever onto the top of your handgun, insert the handgun flush against the inner fitment and barrel, snap it ****, lock it, and cock it. The outer cocking lever grasps your slide perfectly and you're ready to go. From a handgun to a rather intimidating carbine in 20-30 seconds.

I highly recommend you give this a whirl as Id love to hear from experienced shooters. Besides looking nice, in essence what you are doing is allowing for more accessories to be applied to your handgun, and to get more precision and possibly more distance out of it. I have a Veridian laser on the right rail, and will put a light on the left, a cope on the top.

It could be argued that this is just a bunch of plastic wrapped around your gun, but personally I think its very handy, especially for people in strict states like mine where compact arms are not accessible. One con I woudl put forward is that my Sig 2226 with Robar coating was slightly scratched after only a few test dry fires and cocking. I quickly sent it back and go tone for my PX4 as I am not as anal about that slide, even though I do have a stainless INOX version. For this handgun I am not seeing any wear on the slide, so this really is a case by case prototype, literally (patent pending). Another concern is that the muzzle of the handgun was not dead centered with the muzzle of the stock, in both cases, but slightly. high inside the barrel. I was told this was normal, and there is clearance.

Here is the direct link to Citadel and one example of the kit, in this case for a USP 9mm. Another great thing about this stock is that once you pick one for your corresponding handgun, it accepts all the calibers of that gun provided the total size is the same. https://citadelgunandsafe.com/g/archives/4514

Ask for Amber.

Enjoy!
 

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It turns your pistol into a SBR, which is a big no-no without a tax stamp. I'm not overly familiar with California law, but I thought SBRs are no go.
 

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I just wanted to add this from your link:

ALL NFA Paperwork must be completed & returned back to you in order to put the Pistol into the Stock unless 16″ barrel conversion is with it. FFL is NOT Required for shipment.


Edit: I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just want you to avoid very serious legal ramifications.
 

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I just wanted to add this from your link:

ALL NFA Paperwork must be completed & returned back to you in order to put the Pistol into the Stock unless 16″ barrel conversion is with it. FFL is NOT Required for shipment.


Edit: I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just want you to avoid very serious legal ramifications.
+1 :?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Hey,

It ships with paperwork, directly to you. No FFL. If it turns out to be a gray area Ill just keep it at home. The length could be an issue but they also have other body-styles that are longer, etc. I expect Command arms to develop this line of products further and then fall in line with State laws. I respect the law, but Im also glad I got one early.
 

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:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Well...its a great concept. I was hoping this would be received positively. Is this forum mostly a California user-base?

Im not criticizing anyone who is stating the law. Its an interesting dilemma, to be sure. But from a design perspective I find this inspiring and it makes me want to try some mockups myself. With so many constraints in CA I think that kits of this nature, ie the archangel G36 conversion kit for a Ruger 10/22, and other such kits are proliferating.
 

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Lavaspit..,So far all the posts above have been trying to make sure that you do not end up on the wrong side of the law,..As you can see in my post ,There are confusing regulations concerning the Roni and it's different configurations...These members are just trying to make you aware of these...The advice is free,mistakes are not
 

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I wouldn't worry about state laws. I'd worry about federal. With this, it looks like you're adding a butt-stock to the gun, and if the barrel is not 16", it would be considered a short barreled rifle, correct? (butt-stock + barrel less than 16" = a no-no without proper ATF registration)
 

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If you add a foregrip or stock to the pistol it is an SBR and you need a stamp to own it. If you want to run the Roni without a buttstock or foregrip then fine. We don't want people thinking they can put a stock on their pistol and unknowingly make an illegal SBR.
 

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Doesn't just a fore-grip make a pistol an AOW?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
As I said, its an interesting legal conundrum. Im not disappointed by the advice. If i need m ore paper work then Ill get more paperwork. If people in more lenient States are on this forum, I hope you consider it. If I had found out about the stock though this frum and that there was a momentarily lapse in getting this stock classified Id jump all over it. That's just me.

In essence, I think that for the money this device is solid, and its primary purpose is simply to add ergonomics and peripherals to your handgun. If making your handgun more accurate is "unlawful" then I think we're on a slippery slope. Generally the "s;slippery slope" argument is a weak one, but not with gun laws.
 

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As I said, its an interesting legal conundrum. Im not disappointed by the advice. If i need m ore paper work then Ill get more paperwork. If people in more lenient States are on this forum, I hope you consider it. If I had found out about the stock though this frum and that there was a momentarily lapse in getting this stock classified Id jump all over it. That's just me.

In essence, I think that for the money this device is solid, and its primary purpose is simply to add ergonomics and peripherals to your handgun. If making your handgun more accurate is "unlawful" then I think we're on a slippery slope. Generally the "s;slippery slope" argument is a weak one, but not with gun laws.
Lavaspit,I am located in Florida,not exactly a restrictive firearm state,.....and I have five NFA Tax Stamps,..These laws we are giving you a heads up on are federal NFA Laws ,..Not state laws
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Lavaspit,I am located in Florida,not exactly a restrictive firearm state,.....and I have five NFA Tax Stamps,..These laws we are giving you a heads up on are federal NFA Laws ,..Not state laws
oh, I see. Thanks for the information. I will take it up with my dealer and Command Arms, etc.

For the rest of you, Id really like to hear some feedback about he stock itself. Especially from experienced shooters. I wan to knwo if this is bells and whistles or something interesting and useful.
 

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This thing is cool but it's not 'plug-n-play'. Fore-grip on a pistol = AOW and requires a $5 stamp.

The rest has been covered.

Although nobody I know has been hammered with constructive intent, I would hate to read about some mope being a beta tester on the regulation. Better to be safe than corn-holed.

.02
 

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It would be an SBR, NFA rules apply but.......They also make a Civi version which will not be classified as an SBR. It is nice to have the shorter configuration but the Civi model turns it into a 16'' carbine type deal. Interesting concept non the less.
 

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lavaspit,

I used one when on a transition team a few years back I think it was on a Glock 17 one of the guys had it sent over to him since we were training the Iraqis on the glocks and the Roni at the time I dont believe had a model to fit a M9 without a rail system. It was a nice little item to have in that it turned the 17 into a mean looking SMG and it did improve accuracy with with the stock and forward grip. It held up ok but I after a few month of abuse the plastic charging handle started losing its grip on the slide of the pistol in the back if I recall and plastic piece that holds the sides together got lose and would move into the trigger well at times. That was a few years ago maybe those things have been fixed but regardless nobody was using that over their M4s when on patrol it was more of a fun range toy. And with all the paperwork you would need to have it here in the States on a pistol its really not worth it unless you have to make you pistol look like its something out of HALO
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thank you

Thank you very much for your insight. I agree. Its clear that one big polymer frame simply cant hold up in combat. And it is just a fun range toy, that is, if you aren't hassled about it. In hind-sight, it was definitely a knee-jerk purchase.

It seems that Sig Sauer has come up with a pistol/SBR conversion kit of their own that looks far more substantial. They call it the Adaptive Carbine Platfrom: ACP

Its a much more feasible design. Let us know what you think.
 
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