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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I am at a local gun store just browsing. There is another customer at the counter wanting to buy an M1 Scout I think it was. He has a PS90 for trade. He steps outside to call his wife and I follow and ask him how much they are going to give for the PS90. He says $800. He is a cop and is now going to act as Scout/Recon instead of entry on the SWAT team and needs a new rifle. I ask him where he is a cop. Wouldn't you know it is for the same county I work for. I had exactly $800 cash in my pocket at this time. Longer story short I left with $0 in my pocket and a PS90 in my hands.
I had no intention of buying one and would not have at full retail, but I could not pass up the deal. This is a cool, simple, nice rifle. I am very impressed with it. The only problem I have is the drop safety. It may work muzzle first, but I took out the trigger pack and was amazed at how little force it took to trip the trigger from the rear of it. I just hit it against a carpeted floor a few times with varying force and it set the trigger off. I have devised a way of adding a supplemental safety to it. Yes, I know it may void any warranty (buying it used I don't know if I have one), but I don't care. It will work independent of all other mechanisms in the rifle and won't interfere in any way with it's function. I ask all of you if you think it is a worry worth having if an AD will result from a blow to the butt of the rifle. I have not tested this while the trigger pack was in the rifle. I will later today though. Thoughts please.

Should this go in modifications? It has a little of both.
 

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First off, congratulations on your PS90 - I'm sure you'll love it!

I haven't ever heard about this concern being brought up before. My first question is, just because you smacked the trigger pack on the floor and it tripped the trigger, will it actually cause an AD if the assembled rifle were to drop? Just asking, I have no idea if it might.

And welcome to the boards!

:?
 

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So there's nothing else in play, such as the Schwartz device that 1911's have?

Good find, by the way. This is the first time I've heard this brought up.
 

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That should not be happening. U may wanna call FN. They will probably still warranty it for you. Maybe he messed with the pack? (lightened the trigger)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Can someone else try this with their pack? I did not use enough force to break anything. Just watch the tab that you lift when removing the pack. Also, I have seen warnings (I'll try to find them later) about the rifle being able to discharge this way. LMK.
 

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ffemt596 said:
Can someone else try this with their pack? I did not use enough force to break anything. Just watch the tab that you lift when removing the pack. Also, I have seen warnings (I'll try to find them later) about the rifle being able to discharge this way. LMK.
I have never heard of either the PS90 or the FS2000 accidently firing when dropped. There was some discussion on the FS2000 and how people had tried to get the firearm to discharge when they slammed the butt down on the floor. The hammer DID drop, but the force necessary to accomplish this also caused the firearm to go 'out of battery'. There was no discharge during any of these test. These test were conducted with primed cases only and not one primer was detonated. There was a thread on this over on the AR15 forum (under the FN section) some time ago.

When I first got my PS90 (when the drop thing was a big discussion on the FS2000) I tried to get the PS90 to fire when dropped. I was not successful in any of my attempts. While it seems easy to get the hammer pack to release the hammer when not in the firearm, each time I tried it in the firearm, the drop placed the firearm 'out of battery' and it would not discharge.

If you have any concerns about your firearm, do not hesitate to call FN.

If you find the information about the warnings plese do post it.

Nice find BTW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
From Promoted Pawn concerning their "trigger job":

The last modification mechanically links the safety switch to the hammer. Without this modification, the weapon can accidentally discharge when dropped or struck- regardless of the safety setting. A factory PS90, WITH THE SAFETY ON, can be made to DROP its HAMMER and FIRE by violently slamming the butt of the weapon into a wall. When rifles with our trigger job are set to "Safe" the hammer can't drop. A precision trigger like ours is more sensitive to accidental impacts - the existence of a mechanically linked safety is an absolute must. When FN designed the P90 they compensated for the unlinked safety by giving the weapon an annoyingly long and heavy trigger pull. We have found a better way.
 

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ffemt596 said:
From Promoted Pawn concerning their "trigger job":

The last modification mechanically links the safety switch to the hammer. Without this modification, the weapon can accidentally discharge when dropped or struck- regardless of the safety setting. A factory PS90, WITH THE SAFETY ON, can be made to DROP its HAMMER and FIRE by violently slamming the butt of the weapon into a wall. When rifles with our trigger job are set to "Safe" the hammer can't drop. A precision trigger like ours is more sensitive to accidental impacts - the existence of a mechanically linked safety is an absolute must. When FN designed the P90 they compensated for the unlinked safety by giving the weapon an annoyingly long and heavy trigger pull. We have found a better way.
Thanks for the info.

Guess that I just did not violently slam the butt of my weapon into a wall with sufficient force.
 

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You know the plastic hammer mechanism in your hand has a whole host of design differences than a hammer pack placed inside the weapon.

I am sure without the side support of the walls of the stock the hammer pack flexes and bends quite differently held in your hand.

Whilst it might be true that many weapons when put under extreme stress as described will fire, not sure if this particular test revewals a weapon requiring modification.

I suppose it would be kind of like removing the electronic sensor out of a piece of scientific equiment and pointing to failure when you slam the sensor itself on the floor... then claiming that the whole unit is fragile and can't survive standard wear and tear. Yet that same sensor housed properly inside the equipment where it belongs would never fail given the same drop.

Did that make any sense?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
"I ask all of you if you think it is a worry worth having if an AD will result from a blow to the butt of the rifle." - from my OP.

It does make sense. I don't know how much it would/does flex. I think the distribution of force over the whole weapon and not directly on the pack would help prevent it from actuating. Folks please don't take this as a bash against the PS90. I am just doing some investigating/testing of it's components. I observed it's design and realised the safety could do nothing to arrest the momentun of the hammer release (the part that slides back). It only prevents the trigger from being pulled.
 

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ffemt596 said:
Folks please don't take this as a bash against the PS90. I am just doing some investigating/testing of it's components.
Nah, it is all good.

ffemt596 said:
I think the distribution of force over the whole weapon and not directly on the pack would help prevent it from actuating.
That is certainly a better way to put it. I just couldn't come up with the words to describe my thoughts. That is what I was trying to say.

Thought on the P90
I wonder if the P90 has a different safety or trigger pack design now that I think about it. Hek, the P90 has two fire modes, correct? It must be different in some way so that the trigger does more than simply allow the hammer to release. Is there such a safety measure in the P90 that makes this kind of mod unneccesarry?
 

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I'm still skeptical about the firearm being of blowback design not being out of battery when so much force is used to get the hammer to release causing an AD.

I am not discounting it could be made to happen.

It looks like this was done on the horizontal plane (butt slammed against the wall) which may make the drop safety (designed for verticle plane movement) ineffective.

I'd like to know more about how they got the PS90 to AD.
 

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Could you post a pic of pack? as the previous owner may have added a trigger weight reducer that was sold by several vendors. And this may be the reason. On both models there black and would be mounted in the back of the pack closest to the butt pad.
 

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First off, congrats on your rifle purchase. Your story certainly sounds too good to be true, the guy must have been a real moron to sell it for that little, but hey, it happens. I picked up a NIB Glock 30 about a year ago from a guy trying to trade it in at a gun dealer, I gave him $280 cash for it, and I felt like a lucky SOB. Most people who went out of the way to buy such a unique rifle as a PS90 know the value and rarity of it, so unlike a glock your purchase is even rarer IMO.

This is certainly an interesting subject, I would like to know if this gun could indeed fire in stock form if dropped. You have to remember that this is a carbine, and a lot of guns in its class such as the AR15 will fire if dropped also. Seems dangerous, but how many of us have heard of one going off from being dropped out of the million plus AR's?

I do believe that the unique setup of this gun and how it should be slung and carried would really make it difficult to drop on it's butt, especially if you're slinging it with a single point where it's hanging barrel down.. This gun just has a more natural feel when being carried and to me would make it less likely to be dropped.. but then again we all know anything can happen.

HK SD9, did you really put a round in the chamber and try to get it to fire by dropping the gun? Are you serious? Seems like a very dangerous experiment, although I'm sure you had something rigged, I just can't see doing this myself...
 

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ColtM4a3 said:
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HK SD9, did you really put a round in the chamber and try to get it to fire by dropping the gun? Are you serious? Seems like a very dangerous experiment, although I'm sure you had something rigged, I just can't see doing this myself...
Yes I did. I used only primed cases (no powder, no projectile, just the primer and case). I could never get the primer to discharge as the firearm was out of battery. Drop height varied from 12 inches to 4 feet. I built a rack for the PS90 to slide down (near free fall) while remaining in the verticle position.

I tried it on a very hard surface (concrete) , medium strength surface (wood floor with a joist directly beneath it), and soft surface (packed dirt). I repeated the test on the muzzle end but had built a block with a hole in it to place over the muzzle so that the FH would not be damaged but still allow for escaping gas if the primer did fire. When dropped on the butt end, I could hear the 'moving parts group' move rearward placing the firearm OOB. When dropped on the muzzle end, the moving parts did not move UNTIL after the firearm came to a forward momentum halt and the 're-bound shock' placed the 'moving parts group' OOB.

No AD during either of these test. I never thought to try on the horizontal plane as I was checking the 'drop' safety not the 'slam it against the wall' safety mechanism.

I am still weary about the statement used "can be MADE to ...". Heck, I can make just about anything fail - which is what I think Ick was stating can be done - if modified from the original.

By no means am I saying that PromotedPawn or his people did any modifications what-so-ever to the firearm in question and it may be entirely possible to get the PS90 to AD in the horizontal plane. I have not been able to do it in the verticle plane though.

One thing that I have learned in all my years is that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE. Just ask Virgil I. (Gus) Grissom (unfortunately he perished in Apolo 1). He swore that he never "screwed the pooch".
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
ColtM4a3 said:
First off, congrats on your rifle purchase. Your story certainly sounds too good to be true, the guy must have been a real moron to sell it for that little, but hey, it happens. I picked up a NIB Glock 30 about a year ago from a guy trying to trade it in at a gun dealer, I gave him $280 cash for it, and I felt like a lucky SOB. Most people who went out of the way to buy such a unique rifle as a PS90 know the value and rarity of it, so unlike a glock your purchase is even rarer IMO.
I don't want to sound like a nut, but I think I was destined to own this rifle. I am sure it was just coincidence that I had exactly $800 cash in my pocket and that is how much the shop offered him, and how much he sold it to me for, though I thought it to be a strange one. Stuff like this rarely happens to me. The deals always slip away. I could not believe I got it for that. I initially saw it as an investment and thought I would probably resell it and make some dough. No, she is a keeper.
I have ordered a new one because I am so impressed with it.
 

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HK SD9 Tactical said:
ColtM4a3 said:
...

HK SD9, did you really put a round in the chamber and try to get it to fire by dropping the gun? Are you serious? Seems like a very dangerous experiment, although I'm sure you had something rigged, I just can't see doing this myself...
Yes I did. I used only primed cases (no powder, no projectile, just the primer and case). I could never get the primer to discharge as the firearm was out of battery. Drop height varied from 12 inches to 4 feet. I built a rack for the PS90 to slide down (near free fall) while remaining in the verticle position.

I tried it on a very hard surface (concrete) , medium strength surface (wood floor with a joist directly beneath it), and soft surface (packed dirt). I repeated the test on the muzzle end but had built a block with a hole in it to place over the muzzle so that the FH would not be damaged but still allow for escaping gas if the primer did fire. When dropped on the butt end, I could hear the 'moving parts group' move rearward placing the firearm OOB. When dropped on the muzzle end, the moving parts did not move UNTIL after the firearm came to a forward momentum halt and the 're-bound shock' placed the 'moving parts group' OOB.

No AD during either of these test. I never thought to try on the horizontal plane as I was checking the 'drop' safety not the 'slam it against the wall' safety mechanism.

I am still weary about the statement used "can be MADE to ...". Heck, I can make just about anything fail - which is what I think Ick was stating can be done - if modified from the original.

By no means am I saying that PromotedPawn or his people did any modifications what-so-ever to the firearm in question and it may be entirely possible to get the PS90 to AD in the horizontal plane. I have not been able to do it in the verticle plane though.

One thing that I have learned in all my years is that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE. Just ask Virgil I. (Gus) Grissom (unfortunately he perished in Apolo 1). He swore that he never "screwed the pooch".
Very cool, I give you a lot of credit for your ingenuity and taking the time to test this. It's good to hear that it was, at the very least, difficult to get it to fire, especially since you tried so many times.

I certainly was thinking this was more of a scientific "mythbusters" type experiment in a controlled setting and not a couple of guys in a basement dropping the gun from the top of the stairs :-D
 
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