[Erica_the_Red]

Well, it took me a while, but I finally did join 'that other site'. I don't post but I do sort of lurk around and read.
I don't know if any of ya'll are members over there or not, but there is a member there who posted a thread about a 5.7 that blew up in his hand because it fired out of battery! I pulled the magazine from mine and inserted an empty and tested my own personal weapon. It fired a full 1/4 inch out of battery!
I'm sorry ya'll but that scares me. I'm using this as a duty weapon and now I find this out? I never would have thought it unless I tested it.
He went on about how FN never really got back to him and he feels like they just wished he would go away, or else they just forgot about him. I can't imagine I would forget a customer whose gun blew up in their hand!
He did say that he was shooting reloads, and normally I would have jumped all over that as I know a lot of reloaders who tend to 'hotload'. But firing out of battery has nothing to do with the load charge. That's purely mechanical, and in this case, poor design.
Just kowing that mine COULD fire a full 1/4 inch out of battery has me to the point that I'm switching holsters today and putting my Glock back into service.
I can't believe that I bought a $900 'target pistol'.

 

[MadDogDan]

I tried the out of battery test on mine and the hammer will drop when the slide is back slightly (read: up to 1/4"), however, IT WILL NOT FIRE OUT OF BATTERY. When the hammer drops before the slide is completely in battery the hammer contacts the rail used to cock the hammer and not the firing pin itself. The hammer can only contact the firing pin when the slide is in FULL BATTERY. The hammer can ride the rail until it is in full battery and only then will the hammer fully strike the firing pin & primer. Just checking to see if the hammer will drop while out of battery is only half the picture which the other posters on that "other" sight conveniently ignore. I love how that poster of the Ka-Boom says he is sure his RELOADS did not cause the problem. Had this happened with factory ammo I might rethink the situation.

I feel perfectly confident using my 5.7 for CCW,
MadDog :?

 

[ShipWreck]

I know whom you are speaking of. He joined here and may post his story here (he and I have been in contact via e-mail).

Personally - I would not worry about it. He was using reloads. Hence, why FN will not warranty the gun. How many kabooms have you heard of with a Five Seven? The gun has been out for years. ZERO with factory ammunition.

Whatever the issue with his reloads (there could be many) - I wouldn't worry about it as long as U use factory ammo. Yet another reason not to use reloads.

After I blew up a Glock 17 in 1995, I NEVER shoot ANY reloads or remanufacturered ammo...

 

[Erica_the_Red]

I considered the fact that it was a reload as well, but I can't see it.
Just to be safe though, I have a friend who reloads ammunition that has agreed to make me some dummy rounds so I can test for myself to see if firing OOB is actually possible with the weapon. If I find so much as a portion of a dimple though, I'm pulling the weapon from service. Maybe I wouldn't feel so bad about using it for CCW, but not for a duty weapon.
But I have to say, I bought this weapon specifically to replace my duty weapon. The whole idea of carrying 61 rounds with only three magazines was really appealling, not to mention all the other reasons to love this weapon.
The more I think about this situation, the less I think that it is a 'reload' situation. I see your point, but I don't agree.

 

[ShipWreck]

There are thousands of these out there - I think the issue is overblown. The gun has been around a long time...

 

[MadDogDan]

If a dimple on an unfired primer is your criteria then I would have to stop shooting all of my AR's, my XCR & all my 1911's. When a round is chambered in all of my rifles the firing pin makes light contact and will leave a very noticable dimple in the unfired primer. In fact you find dimples in unfired 45ACP rounds in my Kimbers and Springfields. The slide in the pistols and the bolts in the rifles slam forward with enough force to overcome the firing pin spring slightly causing the firing pins to contact the primers but not with enough force to fire the round.

A dimpled primer on an unfired round IS NOT a good test for the prevention of an OOB firing.

MadDog :-?

ETA: The more I think about it, the more I am convinced it was a bad reload. A double charge in a 5.7 casing could definitely cause the damage as described.

 

[thirsty]

Like MadDogDan stated: it is a mechanical impossibility to fire out-of-battery unless something else went wrong.

Take a look at the firing pin block on the underside of the 5-7's slide. See how it is angled? Hold the slide over the frame, and pull the trigger (thumb the hammer up first so you don't beat the frame). Note the little knobby thing on the right side of the hammer. The sole purpose of that lever is to unlock the firing pin as the trigger is pulled. It cannot do that until the slide is all the way forward. It will not allow the falling hammer to touch off the primer until everything is seated.

Now, with the slide off the frame, position the slide 1/4" to the rear. See anything? The lever that manipulates the firing pin block can't even touch the firing pin block that far out-of-battery. About 1/8" to the rear does the lever even touch the block, but again: the angled cut of the block means the firing pin stays put until the slide is closed.

Now reattach the slide. Pull it so it is 1/8" back. Check the barrel and slide. Notice anything now? Let the slide forward and pull it back 1/8" a few times. Check the barrel block through the ejection port. The barrel is fully seated against the breech face. The barrel is in battery from the 1/8" point forward, so even if the firing pin was released early, it wouldn't cause a catastrophic failure.

I'll say it again: mechanical impossibility.

The design prevents the firing pin from being unlocked until the weapon is in battery. Even if the hammer drops, it can't fire the pistol until all is locked up.

The kind of damage on that pistol can also be caused by an over-pressured round. Pressures too high can force the chamber open before the bullet passes and result in a case failure.

 

[Erica_the_Red]

MadDog, I think you're misunderstanding me.

When a round is chambered in all of my rifles the firing pin makes light contact and will leave a very noticable dimple in the unfired primer. In fact you find dimples in unfired 45ACP rounds in my Kimbers and Springfields. The slide in the pistols and the bolts in the rifles slam forward with enough force to overcome the firing pin spring slightly causing the firing pins to contact the primers but not with enough force to fire the round.

I'm not talking about a fully chambered round here. I'm saying that I plan on taking the demilled rounds that I get tomorrow afternoon and feed them (admittedly, slowly) to ensure they aren't fully chambered and the slide isn't fully forward JUST SO that can't occur. And if when the trigger trips and I hear the click, once that round is cleared, if the primer is dimpled, then I have a new target shooter and my Glock is back as a duty weapon.
I followed the entire thread and am continuing to follow it. Apparently the FsN isn't the only 5.7 weapon to have this occur and yes, the others were with factory SS197 ammo, so apparently FN is hot loading too? (I apologize if that came across too sarcastically, its been a really long day.)
Come on. I've heard of certain model Sigs doing this. I've even heard of Glocks doing this. I realize I'm fairly new to the FiveseveN and yes, I LOVE the weapon, but if there is a doubt, I'm pulling her from service until I'm totally convinced otherwise. I'll take on a man twice my size and expect to win. I'll go into a live fire scene and expect to be shot at. I'll do what it takes to get the job done. I just need to know without a doubt that I can rely on my tools to do the job.
Now, once I get my dead rounds back tomorrow, I'll run through my own little series of tests. If I can convince myself that it isn't going to happen, I'll gladly put the Glock back in the safe and change the holsters back out. It only takes about 20 minutes. But if I'm not convinced, all the talking in the world isn't going to change my mind. My peace of mind is worth more than the price I paid for the weapon.
I just thought that I'd share the information I found.

 

[ShipWreck]

Well, follow that new thread too - the one with the photos here - there are some knowledgable people responding there as well.

I personally didn't think it was a real issue before. And after readings ome of the responses here and on the other thread, now I think it is a non issue as long as U don't reload.

But anyway - let us know - I know U want piece of mind...

 

[MadDogDan]

Erica,

Please post the results of your personal tests with the dummy rounds you are having made for you. I am interested to know what happens.

MadDog

 

[thirsty]

I placed little circles of scotch tape over my spent brass to smooth the surface out and make it easy to see contact.

At 1/4" out, click of hammer fall, no mark on the primer.
At 1/8" out, hammer fell, no mark.
Here's the kicker: The weapon was out of battery only slightly because the once-fired brass was slightly oversized and the chamber would not close completely. I measured about 1/32" out. Hammer fell, NO MARK ON THE PRIMER. I pounded the slide closed a second time, and got it close enough to where the firing pin finally made contact.

I am completely convinced this is a non-issue; that unless something else went wrong with the KB'ed pistol, there is no way it fired out-of-battery. I'm wholly convinced the failure came from the reloads and not the pistol.

Important note for using primed brass: The hammer is going to try and force the slide closed when it falls- don't let it. Drop the hammer, then extract the round. Check it for marks, don't rely on the primer firing alone. Wear ears and eyes, those little primers are loud. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction as if the pistol was loaded with live ammo. If the rounds have not been resized, they will not fit in the chamber all the way.

You'll see this out-of-battery theory is utter nonsense.

 

[Thorbrandr]

I posted something similar to ths on the picture thread, more here...

A couple possibilities to think about on the (reloaded) ammo side. Unfortunately I have some limited first hand experience on this.

High primer, possibly with bad sizing, is a possibility here. Never had it happen to me but it could happen.

I also had a case head blow out on a .40 S&W SW99 that caused something like this, although not as severe. Case head blow out started at 6 o'clock on the case, and ripped all the way around. The action was locked when the case head blew, but ended up looking like this. The frame blew out over the trigger, and the slide was partially unlocked after the KB.

Same thing happened with a .40 S&W Taurus PT140 - had to dig parts out of my hand on that one. Turned out to be bad lot of PMC reloaded brass. We (I was helping a LEO friend get setup for a training course) suspected the brass on the first one, and thought we had culled all of it. Missed one. My reloads were good (powder and bullet weight, OAL, primer seating, etc), but there were brass defects (very thin web at the extractor cut) that were made worse by the resizing process. Hodgdon has since reduced the max load by almost .5 gr since then for that combination. So there may have been pressure issues with the published load as well.

In both cases the manufacturers replaced (S&W)/repaired (Taurus) the guns.

So, there is no clear reason to finger the design of the gun - the ammo variables can not be ruled out, especially since the case under discussion was a reload.

T

 

[Robert S]

Could the fact that his was an IOM contributed to this? Weren't there some design changes between the IOM and the USG?

 

[vulcan15]

"Robert S'Could the fact that his was an IOM contributed to this? Weren't there some design changes between the IOM and the USG?

This is my 5/7. It is the same model a IOM. I got it about 3 or so years ago and have put about 1000 rounds thru it. All were factory loads. When I was still a LEO I tested that round we dont talk about on several bullet proof vests and it worked great. I also feed it plenty of 195 and 197 without any hicup yet. No reloads. I still carry it sometimes as you can see the holster wear on the barrel. And if you look at the spare mag you see what kind of ammo is in it. I have not shot any of the new models but this one has never given me any reason to question its reliabillity. So if you ask me if its the gun, I say no. And Erica the Red I complety understand your apprehension. You must as a LEO be comfortable with your duty gun because it's your life line. But dont give up on the 5/7 yet. Keep shooting it. I would have carried mine on duty no problem if my Dept would have let me.

 

[Erica_the_Red]

Say what you will fellas. I switched to the Glock.
After testing my dummy rounds, that wasn't good enough. Carl and I pulled the bullets and emptied the powder from a box of SS197s. We tested with factory installed primers. At ~1/8" mark, the primers fired. I don't have a way to measure exactly, but I wasn't comfortable with what I was seeing and neither was Carl.
So, the 5.7 will be my CCW for a while and my weekend target shooter. My Glock is back as full time duty weapon.
I still love the potential that this weapon has. I just can't trust it again yet.
Maybe after a few thousand rounds through it with heavy gloves I'll change my mind.

 

[Erica_the_Red]

Okay, so I went back over to the FsN site. The colonel sanders guy was telling about some videos he made and his measurements. Then they started talking about what FN says is and isn't considered out of battery.
SO: Carl is going to find a micrometer. And we're going to try again. I will donate some more ammo. SS195 this time and we're going to see if we can get it to fire beyond the numbers FN states.
I need to go back and print that entire thread.
But you know what? After all of my panicking, now I see the point of that ferret guy's thread. If my gun blew up in my hand, I would be upset if FN told me one thing and did another too. If they told me that they were going to do something, then didn't, I'd be seriously PISSED.
However, until we can conclude this test, I will be carrying my Glock. Mainly because I aready switched everything over and I don't feel like swapping it back just in case I have to swap it again. :-?
I know, we should have used a micrometer the first time, but I didn't know, okay. I thought that anything short of fully seated slide was out. Now I know.
So, I'll keep you informed.

 

[dtheman]

He was using reloads.... the brass is never the same and no one person will load a round as accurately as a electric machine with scale.

 

[chutestrate]

I found this post after I sent an email to FN's customer service last week for the same concern. I tinker with new guns, and found what Erica_the_Red posted about. Yesterday I recieved a call from FN, wish I could remember the gentleman's name, and he explained the inner workings of the firing pin. I am convinced that firing out of battery is impossible.

Lots of good info from knowledgeable shooters.

 

[ShipWreck]

I found this post after I sent an email to FN's customer service last week for the same concern. I tinker with new guns, and found what Erica_the_Red posted about. Yesterday I recieved a call from FN, wish I could remember the gentleman's name, and he explained the inner workings of the firing pin. I am convinced that firing out of battery is impossible.

Lots of good info from knowledgeable shooters.

Good to know!

 

[itstock]

Say what you will fellas. I switched to the Glock.

LOL


Whether reloads had something to do with it or not, it could still be an ammo problem in the case. The idea that they WERE reloads just adds to the cause, and as is the cause MOST of the time during kabooms, I'm going with it. Always look for the most likely of the unlikely, or something like that....i.e., reloads.

Now I can only hope that I don't get banned for speaking about my opinion on the subject (wait, okay, I'm good). :lol: