[Quiet]

The results are in on the US Army's "extreme dust test".

Looks like the FN MK 16 SCAR-L ranked 2nd. Which is pretty good since H&K and the US Army had already cancelled the XM8 program. So, in effect, it still performed better than any of the current issue carbines in the US Army.

Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here’s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:

• XM8: 127 stoppages.

• MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

• 416: 233 stoppages.

• M4: 882 stoppages.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

 

[ShipWreck]

Thanks for the info...

 

[apicasso31]

M-4 Woes

Gee I wonder which Remington Raider/REMF still thinks that the M-4 is an excellent system.

For civilian LE use it meets all requirements, as long as it is kept clean! The military is a different matter. They are out in the dirt, dust and mud all the time. The brass hats just need to show some LEADERSHIP, realize that they are making the same historic mistakes they made in Vietnam and get our Soldiers and Marines some good sturdy, reliable rifles, and get rid of that POS that Curtis LeMay and Robert MacNamara stuck us with.

Follow the lead of the Special Operations community. Yeah they've got long hair, and they operate on the fringe, but they are always in a fight and know what works and what doesn't, that experience is often paid with in blood.

I've got three AR-15's and I love them, but they are a pain in the butt to clean after extensive use. I was issued an M-16 in the Marines and again, great to shoot, a pain to clean. Not to mention because of the gas impingement system, you get the gas projected through the top of the upper to the rear gap between the upper and lower receiver and you get some residual gas going into the shooters eye. Not a big deal, just a minor annoyance. Besides I kind of like the smell of burning gun powder!

I've gotten spoiled with my Robinson XCR (gas operated, piston driven operating system). In my experience the fouling from 1500 rounds in the Robinson is equivalent to 100 in the M-16.

When it comes to cleaning, the XCR is a breeze. Clean off the piston system and bolt assembly with some Shooter's Choice solvent, scrub out the barrel, re-lube everything that needs lube and reassemble. 15-20 minutes tops!

The M-16, though easy to break down, requires the use of a "carbon scraper" (Not an issued item, I just purchased one last year for my own use.), gas tube "pipe cleaners" (I was never issued any long pipe cleaners), and a lot of Q-tips. We were only issued CLP and it takes a lot of that stuff to clean all that carbon that is embedded in the operating system (no knocks on CLP, it's pretty good stuff for what it is designed for but you really need solvent to quickly break down the carbon).

Why do we need to continue with the gas impingement system? Let's just send the stuff that is already in the system to LWRC, POF-USA, or HK and convert what we've got into what the Guys and Girls need! If the Brits have the good sense to do it why can't we?

Oh, and put some 50's and Mini-guns on that damn Osprey before you damn "Zeros'" get someone killed with that thing too! Please mark my words, that system has already cost a lot of blood and treasure, and it will cost even more before they finally get the kinks worked out.

All you guys in uniform LE, Fire, EMS, Army, Navy, Coasties, Air Force and especially Marines, you're all in my prayers, thanks for the work that you do. Merry Christmas, may the Lord Bless you and all those with you.

Semper Fi, apicasso31 (Former SGT USMC, 2/7 and 4th Recon)

 

[ShipWreck]

Re: M-4 Woes

'

I've got three AR-15's and I love them, but they are a pain in the butt to clean after extensive use.r Fi, apicasso31 (Former SGT USMC, 2/7 and 4th Recon)

That was always a prime reason why I never got one.

Thanks for the post.

 

[MrNuke7571]

I am no AR fanatic, but cleaning the AR is not any more involved than cleaning any other gun after firing it. I do the same spiel with my PS90, my HK or AK after shooting a few hundred rounds through them. Given the GI system gets more carbon and is dirtier, I don't see it being harder to clean after a range day than any other gun.

On that note I might make an XM8 clone my next project to build. 8)

 

[Texas Armadillo]

I like AR's, I have several. But I can't argue with anything apicasso31 said.

AR's are great for the civie use like I give them at the range. I usually run less than 100 rounds through one per range trip. The cleaning chores are not prohibitive to me. My Bushmaster would be my go to rifle if I needed to grab one and go.

However, I think there are better options available for our troops and civies. In fact, given the chance, I would swap any of my AR's for any one of the other three rifles listed... I may even trade two for one. (grin)

If I ever obtain one or two of the other rifles listed, I will be selling off all but one or two AR's.

 

[TDB7117]

During the test, the SCAR suffered 226 stoppages ranking second to the XM8 with 127 stoppages and 11 major ones, but less compared to the M4 with 882 stoppages and the HK 416 with 233.

The XM8 may have had less overall stoppages but the 11 major ones it did have would scare me. :\/:

 

[TDB7117]

By the way EVERY time I selected the 3 round burst on my M16A2 it jammed in short order. Every Time!!!

 

[tqtran]

They still make the XM8? :evil:

 

[apicasso31]

TDB7117 I hate to date myself, but... While I was in Boot Camp, Jimmy Carter was going out, Ronald Reagan was coming in and the hostages were leaving Iran. I don't think the M-16A2 came into the system until after I was getting out in 84' or I didn't get a chance to qualify with them because I was so "short."

Fast forward to 97' when I joined the Reserves and the only time I got to shoot the A2 was when I qualified at the KD range, and never full-auto. And when we were issued blanks...I'd go "bang, bang, bang you're dead!", because I didn't like cleaning the thing unless there were some holes in something. I think I was a little older and maybe a little wiser (i.e. lazier) when it came to blanks ;-) So I've no "real" experience with the A2, but I have heard the same thing about it jamming.

Semper Fi apicasso31

 

[devildoc]

Don't mea to bust any bubble here but I just got the new Navy Times today that says that initial report was misleading and the actual stoppage for yhe M4 was 296 out of 6,000 rounds vice 882. It's on page 16 of todays Navy times. The Army is trying to explain why there was a mix up in the numbers. Just FYI.

 

[Tspeis]

Originally posted by tqtran:

They still make the XM8? :evil:

It's long gone, believe me. Even though it's still on the backburner, it will probably never see the light of day.

Originally posted by devildoc:

Don't mea to bust any bubble here but I just got the new Navy Times today that says that initial report was misleading and the actual stoppage for yhe M4 was 296 out of 6,000 rounds vice 882. It's on page 16 of todays Navy times. The Army is trying to explain why there was a mix up in the numbers. Just FYI.

If I'm not mistaken, the 296 was from an earlier test. The 882 stoppages were experienced by users in the recent test at Aberdeen.

Another issue regarding the recent dust test, from what I understand, is that the 416 actually did better than all the candidates, including the XM8. However, 1 of the 10 416's had issues. While the other 9 performed fine, 1 kept failing consistently. Below is a VERY informative thread as well as some pictures on the subject from the M4carbine.net boards.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9789

Some very reputable people in the industry commented on the recent tests. If you have a little bit of time, it's definitly worth reading.

 

[devildoc]

Well this isn't my first camping trip. I've seen my share of dog and pony tests being done. The point is made and the data is provided to support the point. I'm not saying that the M4 is the best we have, but is the cost in replacing (over 3 million in total) again and again until the bugs are worked out, worth it. I think that the Military should be looking for a system that will serve at least 50 years down the road. Built in the U.S.

I guess thats why I personally like the SCAR concept. Over 80% of the parts are interchangable between the L and H models. They appear to be very modular. But that's just my opinion. I haven't had a chance to shoot one YET!

 

[FNMAN]

That test had to be rigged because the SCAR needs almost no lube. Lube attracts debris. Why then would you dump lube into a system that doesn't need lube?
I personally witnessed over 2800 rounds being fired from a SCAR Light last week and the weapon was totally dry. The only issue was that as it got hot, the cyclical rate slowed a little. Most people who shot it did 15-30 round mag dumps with it as well. Try that with a M-4 or plastic XM8.
:-x Army testers

 

[reverend db]

FNMAN, does FN endorse running these things with no lube whatsoever?

I assume you work for FN. If you can do it without losing your pension I'm sure we would all LOVE to see more on these tests with the SCAR L.

Even the AK47, pretty much the gold standard in assault rifle reliability, needs a little lube.

If we're asking questions, what about mechanical stress on the piston that actuates the moving parts group in the SCAR? It seems like that little lateral movement would hammer the f*ck out of it.

All that said, I really, really want a SCAR.

 

[ShipWreck]

FNMAN, does FN endorse running these things with no lube whatsoever?

FN man is an FN employee - but he doesn't have time to patrol the entire forum. He also just got promoted, so we're waiting to see if he will remain the contact here or if someone else will come.

He only answers questions on the official FN Q&A sessions in the FNH USA official subforum here.

So, I doubt he will see your question on this thread.

 

[reverend db]

Fair enough. I just and am hungry for more SCAR info.

 

[FNMAN]

The SCAR can operate dry. The piston is not supposed to ever be lubed because it can bake on and gum up. A little lube on the SCAR won't hurt but is not nessessary all the time.

 

[reverend db]

FNMAN, thanks so much for answering my questions!

Is the piston integral to the bolt carrier?

And knowing that the reciever is the same is AWESOME.

 

[Sturmgreif]

The XM8 actually won a contract or two with a couple countries in Southeast Asia; the US military might not want to pay for it, but those other countries will. :roll: