For discussion, I bring you a Browning marked slide, FN Belgian made, 9mm Hi-Power with Tangent rear sight, slotted frame for stock, of the "T" series. This Hi-power is Brand New (Never fired outside the factory) in the original pouch, with 100% mint blue. It has a military style serialization, ie vertical serial numbers on the barrel, slide and frame and has black synthetic grips. It has a shipping date of 1975 as per the Browning Historical Letter. Browning's serial dating Website page shows the change from "T" serialization in 1970 when the product code for sporting guns changed to "C", with the ending serial range of T261000 for 1969. Some document "T" serialization continuing to 1972 on some Hi-Powers. I submit this example in the T361000 range shows "T" serialization through 1975 on some Hi-Powers. The pouch tag has the matching serial number and M/S which I believe stands for Military Sights (Browning's designation for Tangent rear sight, see comments on Historical letter). I had never seen or heard of another T series Tangent Slotted Hi-Power until today. There are two on Gunbroker, both with their holster stocks. One is a 1969 T series www.gunbroker.com/item/775705779 and the other is less described ww.gunbroker.com/item/771572897. The Gunbroker ones are very nice, but used and not mine by the way. Rare Hi-Powers indeed or?. Thoughts? Info on these Hi-Powers appreciated. I note the !969 T series Hi-Power on Gun Broker has an FN marked slide, not Browning like mine. If someone can review how that all worked as far as what was marked Browning vs FN. IE were FN marked sold by Browning up to 1970 or ?? I have forgotten and/or don't know the whole story on Browning vs FN marked. Thanks, Mark
Hi-Power Tangent, Slotted, "T" Series
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Joined
·
11 Posts
There is beautiful blueing on this pistol indeed. enjoy! I'd love to get a letter from FN about my pistols.
Joined
·
129 Posts
For discussion, I bring you a Browning marked slide, FN Belgian made, 9mm Hi-Power with Tangent rear sight, slotted frame for stock, of the "T" series.Sort of Mark, "T" series is a colloquial term normally used to describe an FN or Browning marked BHP that retained a version of the original bump 'n hump fixed sights, the original ring hammer and the new external extractor first found on the series production "T" SN scheme BHP pistols of '64. Continuous production of "T" series BHPs DID end in '72...in the same SN range as your T361XXX. The difference with your particular pistol is the fact that post-war, tangent sight BHPs were completed haphazardly in small blocks using pre-assigned SNs. Your pistol might have actually been produced in '72 or so and held at the factory until ordered by Browning, OR it might have been completed in '75 per a smal Browning order using a SN from the previous block. FWIW, I'm aware of a tangent "T" with SN T365XXX that was completed no earlier than '79 (as per FN Part Date Codes) and you can find several pics of a much later tangent T with SN T374117 in the original Blake Steven's 1984 BHP book. FWIW, tangent BHPs were resurrected haphazardly in small batches later and can be found with SNs in the "C" SN range and "245" SN range...I've got 3 of 'em. This Hi-power is Brand New (Never fired outside the factory) in the original pouch, with 100% mint blue. It certainly IS beautiful, congrats. It has a military style serialization, ie vertical serial numbers on the barrel, slide and frame and has black synthetic grips. WADR, sort of again Mark; the "stacked" SNs were normally a feature of FN marked BHPs meant for sale outside North America...both commercial and Military. The same can be said for the plastic service grips. It has a shipping date of 1975 as per the Browning Historical Letter. Browning's serial dating Website page shows the change from "T" serialization in 1970 when the product code for sporting guns changed to "C", with the ending serial range of T261000 for 1969. The Browning website...both SNs and Timeline, is...and always has been, a soup sandwich. The standard "T" series BHP pistols...as mentioned above, were produced through '72...MY newest "T" is a T361XXX. Concurrently though, in '69 FN started the "C" SN scheme by producing BHPs identical to the "T"s but with a 69CXXXXX SN...followed by 70CXXXXX SNs. In '71 the 71CXXXXX SN BHPs got the spur hammer, while the concurrently produced "T" SN BHPs retained the ring hammer. Some document "T" serialization continuing to 1972 on some Hi-Powers. Documented with actual FN Date Coded pistols. I submit this example in the T361000 range shows "T" serialization through 1975 on some Hi-Powers. Not continuously. The pouch tag has the matching serial number and M/S which I believe stands for Military Sights (Browning's designation for Tangent rear sight, see comments on Historical letter). I had never seen or heard of another T series Tangent Slotted Hi-Power until today. There are two on Gunbroker, both with their holster stocks. One is a 1969 T series www.gunbroker.com/item/775705779 and the other is less described ww.gunbroker.com/item/771572897. The Gunbroker ones are very nice, but used and not mine by the way. Rare Hi-Powers indeed or?. Thoughts? Info on these Hi-Powers appreciated. I note the !969 T series Hi-Power on Gun Broker has an FN marked slide, not Browning like mine. If someone can review how that all worked as far as what was marked Browning vs FN. IE were FN marked sold by Browning up to 1970 or ?? I have forgotten and/or don't know the whole story on Browning vs FN marked. Short version; FN produced the BHP, Browning Arms was the independent North American importer and FN marked the slides to order. In '77 FN bought Browning Arms and the same sort of import arrangement continued. Eventually there were several corporate changes in Herstal Group...who owned both, and the Browning name was used for the sporting side (Browning SA, Browning Arms and later Browning Viana) while FN supplied the government and "other" contracts, they even used FNH, FNMI and outside companies such as HOWCO, Gun South and Steyr to import BHPs into the US. Thanks, Mark
Sorry for the delay Mark...life intervened.
Apologies for the “inserted” comments manner of replying, thought it might be more clear
Sorry for the delay Mark...life intervened.
Apologies for the “inserted” comments manner of replying, thought it might be more clear
Thank you sub-moa for your comments and information/clarifications. Are there some kind of date code stamps on certain parts of HP's? If so can you tell me where to look and how to decipher. I am also curious about the stocks for these HP's. I was once told flat board unmarked stocks (with out holsters attached) were imported by Browning to the US, but never were distributed with the HP's themselves. The stocks were like those with the holsters that I referred to on Gunbroker. I would appreciate any information you could offer regarding stocks for HP's such as mine. Thanks, Mark
Joined
·
129 Posts
UR most welcome Mark; FN Part Date Codes (PDC) can be found on all major parts since '46. They date when the PART passed factory inspection. Find the latest PDC on the pistol and that indicates the pistol could not have been assembled any earlier than that PDC indicates. Most often there'll be more than one PDC because parts were taken from "baskets" to assemble pistols and the baskets were refilled as new parts were produced. PDCs consist of a shape/partial shape...the '70s it's a diamond, with a single digit/number inside. The character of the digit/number will also indicate what decade the single digit/number represents. The missing part of the shape indicates the quarter of that year. Examples: For '72, a 2 inside a full diamond indicates 1st quarter of '72, if the lower right part of the diamond is missing it'd be 2nd quarter of '72, entire right side missing is 3rd. quarter and 3 parts missing is 4th quarter. The shapes hold true for '73 through '77, only the digit/number changes. Over the years less and less parts received a PDC, but at very least in the '70s you will find a PDC on the side of the barrel lug and on the firing pin tunnel. A good light and magnifying glass are helpful.
As far as the FN board stocks; they're only "exempt" on "Pre-War" FN BHPs and the very few crested "Emirates of Muscat & Oman" FN BHPs as per ATF C or R Section III. A board stock with a modern...other than the M&O slotted BHP above, = Short Barrel Rifle which = $200 Tax Stamp/ATF approval...OR 10 years/$10000 Fine.
Good?
As far as the FN board stocks; they're only "exempt" on "Pre-War" FN BHPs and the very few crested "Emirates of Muscat & Oman" FN BHPs as per ATF C or R Section III. A board stock with a modern...other than the M&O slotted BHP above, = Short Barrel Rifle which = $200 Tax Stamp/ATF approval...OR 10 years/$10000 Fine.
Good?
Thanks again Sub-moa. I will have to dig up my HP and look for those PDC's just to get a better idea of when my HP was manufactured. As to the stocks, I was just curious. I have not found alot of info on the stocks made for HP's. We are good. Thanks for all your time and information. Mark
Hey, I finally dug out this T series Hi-Power. Based upon the PDC's on the barrel lug and firing pin tunnel. It looks like the barrel lug was inspected in the 1'st quarter of 1970? The firing pin tunnel looks at first like the 3'rd quarter, but the strike of stamp is weighted to one end which means the one end of the 0 and one end of the triangle did not print well. So The firing pin tunnel may be missing one or two quarters. SUB MOA please confirm my observations and add any other observations you might have. I have attached pics. So I am thinking this Hi-Power was manufactured in 1970 and sold June 24, 1975 to Thompson's Sporting Goods in Long Beach CA.
Attachments
Joined
·
129 Posts
Great pics Mark, and I'd agree with your observations that the barrel was inspected...as an individual part, first quarter of '70 and the slide was inspected...again as an individual part, second or third quarter...I'd lean more towards third quarter, of '70. Keep in mind though...as mentioned, that FN Part Date Codes only indicate when that part...as an individual part, was inspected...it does not indicate when the actual pistol was assembled (manufactured). BHPs were frequently assembled using parts that had been inspected over several months...yours is an example, and even 2, 3 or more years.
Consequently...and unfortunately, there's no way to call the year your pistol was actually assembled (manufactured) using the PDCs. Speculating; it's possible your pistol was assembled immediately during the third quarter of '70 and then sat at FN for 5 years...though IMHO that's extremely unlikely since Browning was an independent importer and not yet part of FN...which didn't occur until '77. Browning figured what they'd need for a particular year, they'd order...and pay for, X number of BHPs. I can't imagine FN manufacturing pistols for Browning and then letting them sit there for 5 years. Here's another thought; tangent BHPs like yours were assembled from existing parts in small batches and that practice was started and stopped multiple times over the years.
More speculation; that brings up the possibility that it was assembled in '70 and shipped to Browning where it sat for 5 years until it was shipped to the distributor in '75. That's a long time for Browning to tie up $$$, in fact occasionally Browning would fail to order enough BHPs for a particular year and FN would bend over backwards...even double stamping BHPs, to get them to Browning. Again, tangent BHPs were assembled from existing parts in small batches and that practice was started and stopped multiple times over the years.
Another thought; Browning marked BHPs of that period...tangent or not, were are not normally found with triple "stacked" SNs...as yours is, FN marked BHPs were so marked.
Though tangent BHPs were produced in small batches from existing parts, we might also consider the fact that SN 361992 is consistent with other (standard) BHPs produced in '72. I might could more likely imagine FN assembling 361992 in '72 from parts intended for an FN market...hence the stacked SNs, adding a Browning slide legend and shipping it across the pond to Browning...where it sat until being shipped to the distributor in '75.
A final speculative thought; with the small batches of tangent BHPs being assembled from existing parts...particularly the unique slides, perhaps 361992 wasn't assembled until even '75.
Absent FN's production records...or at least a sister tangent like 361991 or 361993, with a PDC of '71/'72/'73/'74/'75, that's the best I can suggest off the top of my head Mark
It really IS a VERY nice BHP :mrgreen:
Consequently...and unfortunately, there's no way to call the year your pistol was actually assembled (manufactured) using the PDCs. Speculating; it's possible your pistol was assembled immediately during the third quarter of '70 and then sat at FN for 5 years...though IMHO that's extremely unlikely since Browning was an independent importer and not yet part of FN...which didn't occur until '77. Browning figured what they'd need for a particular year, they'd order...and pay for, X number of BHPs. I can't imagine FN manufacturing pistols for Browning and then letting them sit there for 5 years. Here's another thought; tangent BHPs like yours were assembled from existing parts in small batches and that practice was started and stopped multiple times over the years.
More speculation; that brings up the possibility that it was assembled in '70 and shipped to Browning where it sat for 5 years until it was shipped to the distributor in '75. That's a long time for Browning to tie up $$$, in fact occasionally Browning would fail to order enough BHPs for a particular year and FN would bend over backwards...even double stamping BHPs, to get them to Browning. Again, tangent BHPs were assembled from existing parts in small batches and that practice was started and stopped multiple times over the years.
Another thought; Browning marked BHPs of that period...tangent or not, were are not normally found with triple "stacked" SNs...as yours is, FN marked BHPs were so marked.
Though tangent BHPs were produced in small batches from existing parts, we might also consider the fact that SN 361992 is consistent with other (standard) BHPs produced in '72. I might could more likely imagine FN assembling 361992 in '72 from parts intended for an FN market...hence the stacked SNs, adding a Browning slide legend and shipping it across the pond to Browning...where it sat until being shipped to the distributor in '75.
A final speculative thought; with the small batches of tangent BHPs being assembled from existing parts...particularly the unique slides, perhaps 361992 wasn't assembled until even '75.
Absent FN's production records...or at least a sister tangent like 361991 or 361993, with a PDC of '71/'72/'73/'74/'75, that's the best I can suggest off the top of my head Mark
It really IS a VERY nice BHP :mrgreen:
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
