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Discussion Starter #1
In another forum message, Ship made the comment that he had to slightly zero his EOTECH on is PS90 every time he went to the range. That got me thinking about how often one needs to zero and if it is possible to zero too much.

For this discussion we are going to limit ourselves to fixed sights and red dots such as the EOTECH and the Aimpoint.

First of all, make sure the red dot is firmly mounted to the weapon. Most problems I see with zeros is that the scope becomes loose, or is of such a poor quality that it can’t take the abuse.

If you have to adjust your irons every time, then the odds are that you are not shooting the same, possibly not placing your cheek weld in the same spot.

If you are doing bulls eye target shooting, then you may want to adjust them. Tactically speaking, we are interested in hitting two legged creatures. You should do an initial zero with a new scope or anytime you change to a significantly different ammo. Besides this, you should never have to touch it. Every time you shoot, the environment will be slightly different. You must acknowledge this, and realize that tactically it doesn’t matter that much. You can not get confidence in your weapon if you get in the habit of fiddling with the zero each time you go shooting. Leave it alone.

Earlier this year in Iraq, one of the Brits in the company I worked for expressed concerns that he was issued a rifle that was not sighted in to him. Support personnel such as watchkeepers, clerks, G2 are not issued weapons, but are loaned weapons when they go outside the wire. This person was concerned that he may have to use it, and not only miss his opponent, but possibly hurt a non combatant. My team heard about this complaint, and I could see that some of them may have thought this was a serious issue. So, the next time we went out to the range I had to prove to them that it was not a valid concern.

Using steel plates the size of someone’s chest as targets, I moved the team back to over 200 yards away. Using their own weapons, I had them shoot the steel. No problems were observed. Then, I had them trade weapons with the person next to them. I could see that some of them thought it would not work at that range, but it did. Then they traded weapons again. In the end, each person shot 11 other rifles with either iron sights or red dots that were not their own zero. They proved to themselves that you don’t need a perfect zero to kill at such ranges.

If you can do that at 200, why do you need to worry about 50 yards? At 25 yards you should be able to point shoot a rifle. Why? Because red dots do break, do fall off, or generally go tits up at the worse movement. I can shoot well at 25 yards without sights then having to take the time to transition to my pistol.

Next time you go out to shoot, turn off your red dot and try it.

What if someone is breaking into your house and you forget to turn on your EOTECH, and you only find out after raising the weapon up to engage the armed intruder? Are you going to stop and turn it on, or our you going to shoot?

You must have confidence in your weapon and your skill.
 

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Well, as I originally stated - I sometimes have to update the zero on my eotech - but this is only when I am shooting at 50 yards, and I'm trying to hit that center mark. W/o adjusting it - it may be a couple of inches off, depending on if it is a windy day, or if I had a windy day the last time I zeroed it.

I still like to shoot my PS90 at 50 yards everytime I go out, and see how good of a group I can get. Then I'll go closer and shoot while holding the rifle.

Even w/o adjusting the zero - I easily hit the target - just slightly to the side - for the reasons I stated below.

As far as someone in my home - I'd probably grab a pistol unless there were some unusual circumstances (heavily armed or multiple bad guys). While my PS90 isn't a Class 3 weapon, I have so much money sunk in the damn thing that it's sorta the same principle some guys have with their class 3 stuff. Why grab that and use it, and then have the police take it away as evidence after a shooting.

So, the PS90 isn't my 1st go to gun if I need to grab a gun at home.

But, I do see what ya mean about relying too much on a red dot. However, the PS90 is a bit different as opposed to an M4 with co-witnessed sights. U don't have the luxury of good rifle sights on the PS90 - especially if ya have the tri rail.

I think that in avg room size distances, U could hit a person sized target with a PS90 w/o sights or a red dot just by pointing it, though.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well, as I originally stated - I sometimes have to update the zero on my eotech - but this is only when I am shooting at 50 yards, and I'm trying to hit that center mark. W/o adjusting it - it may be a couple of inches off, depending on if it is a windy day, or if I had a windy day the last time I zeroed it.
Ok, but help me understand why you are changing it? Like you, I always start off at 50 yards. Yesterday, I was maybe 1 inch to the left. I too look for a tight shot group, but a tight shot group doesn't have to be on the X per say.

This is how I think. I zero when there is no wind and leave it. This is my true zero. If next time the wind is up, then I would adjust using point of aim. If you keep changing the zero, you are loosing your true zero and thus the point of reference to adjust from.

Somebody may comment that the PS90 is not a sniper rifle and we are really talking about ranges up to 100 yards for the average self defense situation. This is true. I honestly think very little about adjusting point of aim. I put the dot in the thorasic triangle and shoot. Point of aim comes into play when the target is small. If the bad guy is showing me his head, or even another part of the body I am taking the shot and may adjust. But, I don't want to have to change the point of aim from a "windy day" zero that I really don't know what it is exactly. Odds are that there will be no wind (indoors) or very little. That is why I zero at zero (wind).
I hope this makes sense.

We may have a hard time explaining to a judge why we shot a robber at 100 yards though.


As far as someone in my home - I'd probably grab a pistol unless there were some unusual circumstances (heavily armed or multiple bad guys). While my PS90 isn't a Class 3 weapon, I have so much money sunk in the damn thing that it's sorta the same principle some guys have with their class 3 stuff. Why grab that and use it, and then have the police take it away as evidence after a shooting.
A pistol is a good choice. Are you worried the police would not return the PS90 if you had to use it?

But, I do see what ya mean about relying too much on a red dot. However, the PS90 is a bit different as opposed to an M4 with co-witnessed sights. U don't have the luxury of good rifle sights on the PS90 - especially if ya have the tri rail.
Ok, not sure what you mean, unless you are saying that since you are dependent on the red dot, you want to make sure it is zeroed every time? One problem with our PS90s with EOTECHs is that we don't have BUIS to fall back to. That is why I train with the EOTECH turned off too. "Shoot the window" as if it were a TV screen. Give it try next time. Same concept people use with an AK when they simply put the front sight to center mass and shoot.

Anyhow, interesting discussion! :D
 

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I don't get to the outdoor range that often - so I'm stuck with the weather as it is on that day. Actually, I rezeroed it by tiny amounts on a few trips before I realized why I was having to do it - it dawned on me that it was probably because of the wind. Remember - I am a long time shooter - but always with handguns. The world of rifles is new to me.

I suppose that the next time I am out there on a day with no wind, I'll adjust it again and leave it - but, in the past - I WAS trying to hit that X every time. LIke I said, I forgot about the wind being an issue in the beginning.

As far as the police - U will probably get your gun back - the police could hold on to it for 6 months or more (maybe even a year or more). And, it will probably be banged up and scratched up when you get it back.

Plus, if it is something nice - the cops like to play with weapons sometimes too - so they'll be messing around with it. I've seen a few stories on the net that illustrate that a person's gun doesn't always come back in the condition it was when they took it. MY point was that I'm not gonna have that happen with such an expensive gun unless there was a specific reason I needed my PS90 to defend myself.
 

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I want the best advantage I can get, I am going to grab my SBR PS90 if a situation arises that I shall need it. I can't and won't put a value on my life, or the life of a loved one.
 

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Well, in a SHTF or multiple armed assailants, I would grab it if I needed it.

Otherwise, I have too many other weapons I could get - unless I was standing right where the PS90 is when something happened.

If I have 3 pistols and my PS90 all together - and I need a gun - I'd probably grab a pistol first. Not because I don't believe in the gun - but because of all the stuff that will happen to the weapon after a legetimate shoot.

I also see people in court a lot, and they try to get their weapon back sometimes... And it can be a big hassle between the Judge's order, the state police (crime lab), and the local police. It isn't always easy.
 

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Yeah, it might be difficult to get the gun back, but I have others that would suffice in the mean time.
 

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Every time you drop your weapon.

Much like a torque wrench, the sighting on a firearm are delicate (although not quite as delicate as a torque wrench) and any time that your firearm is droped, banged, or otherwise mishandled so that there is a question about the sighting, it should be re-zeroed.

If you are using IRON sights, its not a problem. However, any third party add on sight may be questionable.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hk,

That is very true, especially with scopes.

I have had great luck with my EOTECH staying zeroed, even after being exposed to an explosion. I thought for sure that it was going to be broken, but worked fine and was still on target.

Worse threat to a zero is when you let a friend look at your weapon, and they start to wonder what the funny little knobs are for....
 

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U mean I can't throw my PS90 on the ground and kick it across the pavement and expect the EOtech to still be dead on? :x
 

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In another forum message, Ship made the comment that he had to slightly zero his EOTECH on is PS90 every time he went to the range. That got me thinking about how often one needs to zero and if it is possible to zero too much.

For this discussion we are going to limit ourselves to fixed sights and red dots such as the EOTECH and the Aimpoint.

First of all, make sure the red dot is firmly mounted to the weapon. Most problems I see with zeros is that the scope becomes loose, or is of such a poor quality that it can’t take the abuse.

If you have to adjust your irons every time, then the odds are that you are not shooting the same, possibly not placing your cheek weld in the same spot.

If you are doing bulls eye target shooting, then you may want to adjust them. Tactically speaking, we are interested in hitting two legged creatures. You should do an initial zero with a new scope or anytime you change to a significantly different ammo. Besides this, you should never have to touch it. Every time you shoot, the environment will be slightly different. You must acknowledge this, and realize that tactically it doesn’t matter that much. You can not get confidence in your weapon if you get in the habit of fiddling with the zero each time you go shooting. Leave it alone.

Earlier this year in Iraq, one of the Brits in the company I worked for expressed concerns that he was issued a rifle that was not sighted in to him. Support personnel such as watchkeepers, clerks, G2 are not issued weapons, but are loaned weapons when they go outside the wire. This person was concerned that he may have to use it, and not only miss his opponent, but possibly hurt a non combatant. My team heard about this complaint, and I could see that some of them may have thought this was a serious issue. So, the next time we went out to the range I had to prove to them that it was not a valid concern.

Using steel plates the size of someone’s chest as targets, I moved the team back to over 200 yards away. Using their own weapons, I had them shoot the steel. No problems were observed. Then, I had them trade weapons with the person next to them. I could see that some of them thought it would not work at that range, but it did. Then they traded weapons again. In the end, each person shot 11 other rifles with either iron sights or red dots that were not their own zero. They proved to themselves that you don’t need a perfect zero to kill at such ranges.

If you can do that at 200, why do you need to worry about 50 yards? At 25 yards you should be able to point shoot a rifle. Why? Because red dots do break, do fall off, or generally go tits up at the worse movement. I can shoot well at 25 yards without sights then having to take the time to transition to my pistol.

Next time you go out to shoot, turn off your red dot and try it.

What if someone is breaking into your house and you forget to turn on your EOTECH, and you only find out after raising the weapon up to engage the armed intruder? Are you going to stop and turn it on, or our you going to shoot?

You must have confidence in your weapon and your skill.
Big +1.

Me = 12+ yrs LEO...10+ years tactical team (entry & counter-sniper)...more than a few "incidents"...

VERY well written and couldn't agree more!

Trust in your weapon and yourself is PARAMOUNT!
 
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