[Sheepdogged]

I have an unusual—okay, weird—question...

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and thinking about buying an FNS 9c. All of my carry guns up to now have been safetyless (M&P40c, Glock 19, PPS, XDs9, M&P Shield, and Glock 26). I haven't made up my mind, but I MIGHT go with a safety because I still get a little excited holstering my weapon appendix style next to my junk. I figured if the safety on the FNS is passive enough, I may use it to holster the weapon–and as soon as it's secure–turn the safety off so I don't have to worry about it not going bang.

I also hate loaded chamber indicators because I think they're not safe, especially across platforms.

With that said, what's the best way to remove the red paint off both the loaded chamber indicator (gun metal) and the safeties (polymer)?

I'm interested to know people's thoughts about safeties, loaded chamber indicators, and FNS firearms in general as well.

Thanks,
Sheepdogged

 

[KameronTKelly]

I hate FN pistol safeties. They stick out too far and rip up my hand when I shoot especially on smaller pistols. If you have gone safetyless up to this point then why would you stop now? I am not sure why you dislike chamber indicators. Perhaps you could elaborate on that? Welcome to the forum :biggrin:

 

[djv38]

Kam, the FNS safeties don't stick out much at all (not even noticeable to me).

As to the chamber loaded indicator, I don't pay any attention to them. My guns have either lost the red paint, or I can't see it.

CLP might take it off.

 

[KameronTKelly]

Kam, the FNS safeties don't stick out much at all (not even noticeable to me).

As to the chamber loaded indicator, I don't pay any attention to them. My guns have either lost the red paint, or I can't see it.

CLP might take it off.

Ah foot in mouth. I was referring to the FNX line. I will have to play with an FNS when I get back. I am already heavily invested in the XD series.

 

[Smurky]

:welcomesigntb3: To the Forum. I pay no attention to the chamber indicators and seldom use a safety on an equipped pistol. Lone exception is a Five seveN and I decock the X45Tac. Given a choice I would get W/O a safety.

 

[mgdive]

I carry holstered whenever I can, but sometimes out of convenience around the house I appendix carry with a clip. My personal rule is that I never carry with a round in the chamber unless I'm using some kind of holster that covers the trigger guard. I'm curious about your feelings about the LCI though as I've never felt strongly either way and just ignore them. I don't think they are a solution to anything (my loaded chamber indicator is inspecting the chamber myself), but by the same token don't introduce any problems either.

 

[Sheepdogged]

If you have gone safetyless up to this point then why would you stop now? I am not sure why you dislike chamber indicators. Perhaps you could elaborate on that? Welcome to the forum :biggrin:

Like I mentioned, I'm now open to the idea of using a safety to HOLSTER my weapon when carrying it appendix style. As soon as it was in its holster, I would turn the safety off. I've just seen too many examples of people shooting themselves. Yes, people do shoot their penises and testicals off and put rounds in their leg every year. It's rare, but it happens.

Loaded chamber indicators are dangerous. People get hurt when they're sure their guns are not loaded. Lighting can be a cause to have a false negative, flags have failed to go down giving a false positive, you may not be thinking clearly and switched from one gun to another, paint can rub off... there are many good reasons to assume every gun is always loaded.

 

[Sheepdogged]

As to the chamber loaded indicator, I don't pay any attention to them. My guns have either lost the red paint, or I can't see it.

Exactly, that's why I want to take the paint off. I don't want to ever rely on it. If there's no red paint, I'll never think about it in a situation where I'm multitasking or not thinking clearly.

 

[Sheepdogged]

I carry holstered whenever I can, but sometimes out of convenience around the house I appendix carry with a clip. My personal rule is that I never carry with a round in the chamber unless I'm using some kind of holster that covers the trigger guard. I'm curious about your feelings about the LCI though as I've never felt strongly either way and just ignore them. I don't think they are a solution to anything (my loaded chamber indicator is inspecting the chamber myself), but by the same token don't introduce any problems either.

I personally think the clip is a bad idea. You need to cover that trigger guard. Watch the YouTube videos about the two police officers that shot themselves.

My feelings about loaded chamber indicators are now above in my comments to Kam

 

[Digitalis]

As far as the loaded chamber indicator on any gun goes, if you trust it absolutely, perhaps you deserve to wing yourself.

Rule #1: Treat every firearm as if it were loaded at all times.
Rule #2: Always know the status of your firearm (See Also: Rule #1.)
Rule #3: If unsure of the status of your firearm, press-check your firearm to inspect the chamber with Mark 1s (See Also: Rule #1.)

That said, don't attempt to modify the loaded chamber indicator on the FNS series; it's actually part of the extractor, and the baby bunnies might cry if you do.

 

[KameronTKelly]

The LCI is a novelty at best. It's of the utmost importance to know the status of your weapon (be it carry gun or not) at all times. That being said I can't really get down with appendix carry. Too many goodies in front of the pipe to have to worry about under duress. I carry with one in the chamber because I don't want fumble fart around cocking a slide if someone is shooting at/trying to stab/beat/burn/or otherwise damage my body.

 

[Sheepdogged]

I can't really get down with appendix carry. Too many goodies in front of the pipe to have to worry about under duress. I carry with one in the chamber because I don't want fumble fart around cocking a slide if someone is shooting at/trying to stab/beat/burn/or otherwise damage my body.

I like appendix, but I always have the trigger covered when I do, but it's getting it into the holster that I worry about. That's why I'm rethinking of my decade of carrying a weapon without a safety. Click it safe, holster it, make it hot, you're good to go. I really don't see a downside other than we've all be brainwashed by Glock for thirty years. It's like we went from 1911 to Glock without thinking of an intermediate step that could avoid Glock leg.

 

[Digitalis]

On appendix carry, getting it out of the holster should concern you just as much as getting it in. More people wing themselves drawing than holstering (especially under stressful conditions.) I would ensure my manual of arms were changed so the safety is always on while holstered. Disengaging the safety on the FNS takes no time, and it's another layer of protection between a very unforgiving piece of lead and your extremely forgiving package.

 

[GunRover]

I read somewhere that over 50% of all cops who get shot either shoot themselves (often in the leg or foot while holstering or un-holstering) or in the hand (it gets in the way), or get shot by their partner.

My carry gun is a S&W J frame, in a pocket holster that covers the trigger guard. The 12 lbs trigger is a safety, too. I rarely carry a full-sized pistol but when I do -- in the woods, for example -- I carry it without a round in the chamber. I think the Glock has single-handedly brought the AD (or ND) to many a police department. I don't understand the desire by everyone to lighten the trigger pull on striker-fired weapons, e.g., Apex kits for M&Ps, unless these are to be range guns. I shudder to think of carrying such a gun in an IWB holster. In my erstwhile career, I have personal knowledge of four AD's, all by professionals, one resulting in a death (1 - 1911, 2 - M9, 1 - M11). Safeties are good, although they require training.

 

[Sheepdogged]

On appendix carry, getting it out of the holster should concern you just as much as getting it in. More people wing themselves drawing than holstering (especially under stressful conditions.)

From what I've read, I have serious doubts about your claim. If you isolate people in shootings who draw their weapons and accidently discharge their weapons before they clear themselves, that MIGHT be true, but when you consider all 65,000 injuries from firearms each year—including holstering each day in non-stressful situation—my guess is that the opposite is true. Our information in this area is limited, however, so if you know of any studies that shed direct light on this, I'd be interested to see them. Search the internet, however, and you can find plenty of situations where people shoot themselves while holstering. It happens a lot. A safety at least cuts down on holstering accidents.

 

[Bluemonday]

I'm interested to know people's thoughts about safeties, loaded chamber indicators, and FNS firearms in general as well.

Thanks,
Sheepdogged

Except for single action only handguns, the purpose of an external safety is to compensate for lack of proper training and regular practice.

When we train and practice we come to realize that safety rules aside, real world safety distills down to three variables: the muzzle's direction, the weapon's loaded status, and your trigger finger.

For example, I carry loaded and chambered AIWB using a quality kydex holster. In doing so I know that the first two of the aforementioned variables increase my risk, which is why I am solely dependent on the trigger finger as my safety. If I make a mistake, there's no fail safe.

Now I've been a serious shooter for 25 years and taken over a 1,000 hours of formal training at the top schools and routinely practice dry and live fire and compete all the time, so I have proven ability to rely on my trigger finger.

Other shooters may not be as confident in which case I would recommend more conventional IWB or even OWB carry until that shooter's skills reach a certain level. This should be achieved without reliance on an external safety.

Regarding the LCI, I have actually converted from using the press check to relying on the LCI because I and others have discovered over time that with enough routine press checks we can damage the cartridge in three ways: a) the primer compound separates from the primer body causing FTF; b) the bullet actually pushes into the case reducing the OAL and increasing pressure; and c) this same bullet pushing into the case can cause slight bulging of the case.

So how do we use the LCI? Well first off like any good Manipulation technique we want to use tactile feel not our eyes, whether to maintain eyes up awareness in the day or just to be able to perform the manipulation in the dark. If flush the chamber is unloaded, if protruding the chamber is loaded.

After removing the ammunition source (magazine) and racking the slide during the unloading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is flush. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always perform a press check since there's presumably no ammunition to damage.

After inserting the ammunition source and racking the slide during the loading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is protruding before performing a reload with retention. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always drop the magazine and look to see if there's one less round (eyes down in daytime) or perform a press check (dark).

Hope this gives you some thoughts to consider.

 

[SeaMac]

FYI on the LCI,

A Loaded Chamber Indicator that is integral with the extractor is there primarily so good guys engaging bad guys in low light / no light operations are able to determine without doubt their sidearm is loaded in a tactile fashion. For those that think an LCI is a novelty or serves no purpose should research where they'll likely discover the LCI has been a long time request of those WHO DO engage bad guys in low/no light scenarios. Having been in those situations while using a sidearm I cannot begin to tell you just how many times you will rub your finger along the side of the slide and feeling that insignificant, serving no purpose, novelty of a protruding bump such a little bump distills in its holder a tremendous amount of confidence that you ARE loaded. Also, whilst engaged in two-way endeavors you CANNOT always rely on the slide locking backing indicating you're out of ammo, another reason for the LCI. It should also be noted, ALL combat handguns currently designed have some sort of LCI mostly those that are integral to the extractor, so one must ask, are all firearms manufactures morons or are they responding to those that might ACTUALLY use a sidearm in combat?

 

[Grey.Ghost]

Really good info bluemonday and seamac. Thank you.

 

[Sheepdogged]

FYI on the LCI,

A Loaded Chamber Indicator that is integral with the extractor is there primarily so good guys engaging bad guys in low light / no light operations are able to determine without doubt their sidearm is loaded in a tactile fashion. For those that think an LCI is a novelty or serves no purpose should research where they'll likely discover the LCI has been a long time request of those WHO DO engage bad guys in low/no light scenarios.

Don't kill the messenger, but James Yeager addresses exactly what you're saying in a video and he says you guys need to train more to make sure you know the condition of your gun, and that if on rare occasions you're not sure, he says it's better to cycle a round and let the bullet fly and that losing a round won't matter in the scheme of things. That's probably not the best idea in my opinion if you're carrying a Glock 43, for example, but for any gun with 10, 12, or more rounds that's probably true.

 

[Bluemonday]

if on rare occasions you're not sure, he says it's better to cycle a round and let the bullet fly and that losing a round won't matter in the scheme of things. That's probably not the best idea in my opinion if you're carrying a Glock 43, for example, but for any gun with 10, 12, or more rounds that's probably true.

Perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm totally not following what he is saying here. Why would one lose a round (and create a sound signature which might not be good in certain situations) when we have the LCI and if all else fails the press check?