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Ok Guys, I've heard both sides of my situation from this forum.
Here's the hardline side:
It's my fault and the "bad ammo fairy" dropped some bad ammo into my gun. So therefore it's my problem. FnH's right to deny any fault. Go away and buy another gun.
Ok, I see that point. It is there right to say that.
If you buy a brand new Chevy with 100 miles on it and put bad gas in it--guess what Chevy fixes it--but it's your fault.

Here's the other side. FnH should replace the gun because it's one of the only ones that's ever blown up. I had less than a couple hundred rounds through it. Since it "never happens" (according to Tom and Bob at FnH) what's one gun for goodwill? How many guns is this one out of battery going to cost them? I've had many emails saying so. Bob told me "if they replaced every gun that blew up from bad ammo it would start a trend" well, I've searched and searched for blown up FN's and other than that Five Seven that popped with reloads that's it. In fact Bob said, "that guy was seriously hurt, so we had to investigate it" alluding to litigation---well I wasn't seriously hurt. Well forum users, how would that make you feel if you were told that?
Order of events:
Right after it happened I sent them the gun with the rounds. Immediately.
A couple of weeks, no calls. Finally Tom calls me and I talked to him for 15 minutes about the gun. He says this is the first one he's seen and he's been there for 5 years. He's on the technical side and can't say if FnH will give me another gun--"It's not my department, you must talk to Bob". Then goes the search for Bob Alles.
Bob has failed to call me back on many occasions. I am not rude, nor threatening, nor angry on the phone. In fact other than the first call from Tom, I have made every call, no one has ever called me back. When I do talk to Bob it's been when I've caught him in the office. No, I'm not calling them every day or being a pest. Twice a week at most.
Here's the thing they're offering, I think?
Tom said, we will let you buy another gun at a discounted price. Well I said, "what's the price?" Bob said around $1400, A couple weeks pass by and 3 or 4 messages later (he doesn't call me back) I call again and catch Bob in the office on a Friday. This time when I ask, "what's my price on the gun?" He says it's going to be above $1500. I say, "well what is it?" He says he doesn't know, and will have to call be back on Monday. Well that Monday was 3 days later, no call. In fact that Monday was 2 weeks ago this Monday. Still no call. No price, no nothing.
I called Tom (seems to be the only fellow that's always there) and said, "I want my property back." He tells me the place where the gun is "at a warehouse far away and he'll get back to me." Well Tom never called me back and yesterday the UPS fellow delivers my gun.
So here I am with my $2000 piece of wall art, with a AAC 1000 suppressor with a FS2000 adapter. What would you do?
Who I am:
I make a living selling Hummer H1's and HMMWV (Humvees). I've done this for 13 years, back when there were no H2's and H3's --I don't sell them--H2s and h3s are in another class.
I've sold vehicles to Boeing(defense sector) DARC, BAE, RAYTHEON, Olive Training group, Mustang Technologies, Lockheed Martin etc. and many other "Blackwater" types. I can rig up a Humvee to level 5 armoring as well as "special/custom" options. I've talked to many of my contacts at these organizations about my FnH situation, they can't believe it and have duly noted my situation.
I'm not the gun geek, I don't know all the specific ins and outs of every type of black rifle, fortunately my brother does and is a team member at AR15.com. He is also an attorney/lawyer.

Tell me fellow forum users, what would you do?
Want to talk to me in person instead of firing off some quip?
Call me Blair Outlan 901-378-8877 I'll talk to you. I'm open to suggestions.
 

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The whole idea of products liability and warranties is that the manufacturer must make good on its defectively designed or defectively manufactured products. Here we have a situation where you used questionable ammo.

You may want to make light of it by invoking the “bad ammo fairy” but you know that ammo was not good. By your own admission, you continued to use it after experiencing a series of rounds that failed to discharge after their primers were struck. If you experienced a hang fire where there was a delay in the ignition of the primer and gunpowder, started to extract the round (believing it to be a dud), and it ignited outside of the chamber, you could have an out of battery discharge.

FN does not owe you a new rifle simply because it is in a better position to financially bear the loss than you or your friend. On the other hand, your friend might owe you some money for a new rifle because he brought the reloads to shoot through your rifle. Of course, that’s going to be an awkward conversation. Ideally, if you could find the ammo dealer or the reloader who made that ammo, those people should repay you instead of you seeking something from FN.

That said, I do agree that FN’s failure to return your calls in a timely manner is unacceptable and unprofessional. If they are going to give you the opportunity to purchase a replacement rifle at a discount, it should not be that difficult to get a solid number. Someone at the company has to sign off on it. Try to find out who it is and what the hold up is. Are they waiting for the legal department to approve it? Do they need approval from HQ in Belgium? Are you simply low priority? -Part of the problem is lack of communication keeps you out of the loop and that makes you assume the worst.

If I was in your position, I would be very unhappy about the destruction of my rifle. I would be angry about FN’s lack of communication regarding the discounted replacement rifle. I would be upset with my friend for running crap ammo through my rifle and then walking away from the problem. I would not get wrapped around the axles about what they did for the 5.7 guy with injuries because every plaintiff is different and some cases are stronger than others. I would then commit to the following:

1) Never put ammo of uncertain origin through your guns.
2) If you are experiencing difficulty with a batch of ammo, stop shooting. It means either the gun is broken or the ammo is defective. Both are bad and you need to stop in order to avoid an unsafe situation.
3) Become the squeaky wheel with FN to get the issue of the discounted replacement rifle resolved. Stay on top of the communication with them. Try to learn what the delay is and who you need to speak to in the corporation to get the issue resolved.
 

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And above all, don't destroy any possible case by posting drivel on a public internet forum!!!! Good Lord, when are people going to learn that speaking your mind may be granted to you by the 1st Amendment, but it doesn't mean you should! You've just become a hostile witness!!

Zhur
 

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I guess your response depends on how much piss & vinegar you got stored up having to put up with empty promises from FNH, cuz this is starting to sound just like the FsN situation that happened to Fuzzy Ferret on the other forum. Granted now it's with the FS2000.

If you're familiar with that situation, then you know this discussion can take a life of it's own, and FNH would do well to diffuse it by honoring their promise (or otherwise don't make any promises at all, verbal or otherwise). The best course of action would be to remind them of the FsN situation, which was concluded recently, and work with them to handle it discreetly so as to prevent a potential repeat of that disasterous PR situation. I would agree it would be cheaper in the long run for them to provide the discount as goodwill, thus keeping you in the fold, than to go through the name dragging process that will surely follow.

Now that being said, I'm not advocating taking advantage of the situation, and I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions and always knowing what they're putting into their adult toys. If you've taken responsibility for the use of the ammo that caused the KB, and were willing to accept its consequence, yet FNH promised verbally to provide a discount for it's replacement, then by all means pursue it. Otherwise, end of discussion and lits time to move on!
 

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FnH will NEVER admit to a design fault in their firearms until it is proven in a court of law and even then, a settlement would be reached whereas neither party would ever speak of it again and neither would admit guilt, but would ultimately try to blame it on something else, and the settlement would be sealed.

Thats big buisness, medium buisness, small buisness and the rest of the world when it comes to product liability.

So far:

FnH has sold lots and lots and lots and lots (literally) or FS2000 rifles, only one of which to my knowledge has malfunctioned in this manner and the probable cause is surpluss ammunition.

I have heard that the FS2000 could fire if droped from knee height onto a hard floor in newer production FS2000. This has been studied and it has pretty well been debunked. I suspect that someone modified the firearm and then complained about it not working right. Many rumors surround the secondary sear in the hammer pack which was removed because two people were caught with a modified FS2000 which was made to fire in automatic mode and FnH started making hammer packs without the secondary sear to make it harder for individuals to modify their semi-automatic firearms. This was a change in production.

FnH recalled the early models of the FS2000 to add a spring to the firing pin. This was done to prevent slam fires due to unhardened primers. The firing pin in the early model was 'free floating' and a spring was added to provide resistance to the firing pin movement to prevent slam fires.

FnH will not warrant any modified PS90 into a Short Barreled Rifle of any type. Its modified and voids the warrantee. The same modification clause pertains to all classes of their firearms. There is also a provision about using re-loads voiding the warrantee.

I have heard/read about two FsNs going the KB route. The first was done the very first week the person had it. He used reloaded ammo and had double charged a cartridge. The second was also using reloads and the claim was an OOB firing which very unscientific videos were made to try to substantiate the claim of an OOB firing and counter claims were made and it finally went away when the party received a replacement firearm. He squeaked loud enough. The firearm is engineered so that an OOB can not take place.

So far the only trend I see is:

Surpluss Ammo known to cause problems.
Double charged reloaded Ammo.
Reloaded Ammo

You have a couple of options. Sue FnH. They may relent but I am sure that your brother (the attorney) told you that it is going to be expensive and you probably will not win. FnH already has a lawyer on its payrole and he is there to handle things like this so it isn't costing the company anything yet except a disgrunteled customer.

Customer service over the phone on something like this is in-appropriate. Your brother the lawyer can fire off a letter to FnH (as can you - certified delivery) that you are willing to accept the discounted price and for them to respond in writing within 30 days with the discounted price clearly identified. What I said and what you said in court is hearsay. Letters are damning evidence. Ask for a free sight and other stuff.

You can barter with them by letting them know that you would accept a cash difference of what you paid for your FS2000 and what they are willing to discount a new FS2000 for, but I suspect they will turn you down flat on this one.

You can choose to never buy a FnH firearm again.

You can accept the fact that the surpluss ammo was probably at fault and understand that FnH is doing you a service by discounting to you a new firearm. Have them throw in some other stuff like a free sight and some FnH gear. But do this in writing and not over the phone. You may want to consider firing off a letter to the ammo retailer about selling a defective product. Maybe you can find something about buying surpluss ammo and see if there is a clause in the dangers of ammunition, and whether this is covered (I doub't it).

I have had great customer service with Bob over the phone. When I purchased a FS2000 and it was short a magazine, it was supplied to me within 10 days with additional accessories. When I complied with the requirements for the free sight for the FS2000, I got it within the time alloted. When I needed a manual for the FS2000 I got it in 4 days.

If I ever have a firearm from FnH that malfunctions, I'll call them and let them know and then I'll write them referencing the phone call and what the call was about. After that, everything is in writing.

I hope this works out for you. I'd be pretty pissed about it if it would make me feel better, but in the end, it wouldn't.

Try to get the best deal that you can.

Should FnH replace the firearm? That is there choice and it looks like they are willing to accept the ramifications of their decision to not fork over a new firearm.
 

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I fail to see WHY they should replace your FS2000. If they replace yours, people will feel that every time they put their ****ty, or wrongly reloaded ammo in to a rifle, they don't have to worry because the gun manufacturer will be at fault.


By you wanting a new rifle, it's opening up a whole new can of worms for FN. Fact is, it's not their responsibility. IF FN felt that there was a problem, they would correct it for you, as they have done over and over again. FN takes care of it's customers (from first hand experience) as well as or better than any other firearm manufacturer out there.

I feel your pain that you pretty much wasted $2000 and the company isn't going to help out, but on the flip side, "you should have known better". Feel lucky that you weren't seriously hurt, and move on as a lesson learned.
 

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As I mentioned in a previous post... I suppose it's within FN's right to refuse to replace this rifle, but I've personally seen a far less glamorous company (Ruger) replace a friend's Mini-14 that he purchased USED and clearly admitted to using reloads. Ruger sent him a BRAND NEW Mini-14.

So in the end, while it may be within FN's right to refuse to replace the firearm, the fact is, it probably cost FN somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$800 to make a FS2000.

I suspect the resulting fallout of this story and potential lost sales of future FS2000s (due to people second guessing their purchase of an FS2K) may cost FN more than replacing this customer's rifle.

If it were my call, I'd send off to the customer, a freshly minted FS2K along with an FN Polo Shirt & hat. Then as a good faith gesture (and subtle hint), I'd also include a coupon for a couple boxes of Federal ammo.
 

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Germanic said:
As I mentioned in a previous post... I suppose it's within FN's right to refuse to replace this rifle, but I've personally seen a far less glamorous company (Ruger) replace a friend's Mini-14 that he purchased USED and clearly admitted to using reloads. Ruger sent him a BRAND NEW Mini-14.

So in the end, while it may be within FN's right to refuse to replace the firearm, the fact is, it probably cost FN somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$800 to make a FS2000.

I suspect the resulting fallout of this story and potential lost sales of future FS2000s (due to people second guessing their purchase of an FS2K) may cost FN more than replacing this customer's rifle.

If it were my call, I'd send off to the customer, a freshly minted FS2K along with an FN Polo Shirt & hat. Then as a good faith gesture (and subtle hint), I'd also include a coupon for a couple boxes of Federal ammo.
IMO, you are COMPLETELY overlooking the legal aspect of doing so.
 

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itstock said:
Germanic said:
As I mentioned in a previous post... I suppose it's within FN's right to refuse to replace this rifle, but I've personally seen a far less glamorous company (Ruger) replace a friend's Mini-14 that he purchased USED and clearly admitted to using reloads. Ruger sent him a BRAND NEW Mini-14.

So in the end, while it may be within FN's right to refuse to replace the firearm, the fact is, it probably cost FN somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-$800 to make a FS2000.

I suspect the resulting fallout of this story and potential lost sales of future FS2000s (due to people second guessing their purchase of an FS2K) may cost FN more than replacing this customer's rifle.

If it were my call, I'd send off to the customer, a freshly minted FS2K along with an FN Polo Shirt & hat. Then as a good faith gesture (and subtle hint), I'd also include a coupon for a couple boxes of Federal ammo.
IMO, you are COMPLETELY overlooking the legal aspect of doing so.
I'm not sure why? Some manufacturers WILL replace a KB'd firearm. In the case I cited, Ruger did, and it didn't do anything but HELP their popularity in the eyes of everyone who found out about it.

As competitive as the market is now, especially with the AUG clones and a real AUG on the horizon, I'd say some first class customer service would go a long way towards gaining customers. Again, keep in mind this is a pretty rare occurrence.

Also, the customer was shooting NATO Surplus ammo. It's in the safe now, but I'm pretty sure the barrel on my FS2K isn't marked .223. It's marked 5.56 which would imply that NATO ammo is the recommended choice for anyone shooting an FS2K.

I may be behind the latest trend in running a company, but back in my day there was a saying most businesses lived by... "The customer is always right." While that's not meant to be taken literally in all cases, it stands as a benchmark that a satisfied customer should be the end result of the business. Today we'd call that a mission statement.
 

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They did offer a discounted new rifle. While communications on there part hasn't been the best, keep up contacting them and inquiring about the offer.
Be calm and diplomatic, do not give up, show them that you are not going to go away just because they are not contacting you. You keep calling and asking.
If you don't then you have to pay more to replace the gun from retail. They offered the idea of a discount, might as well take it.

I'm sure your thankfull that you were not hurt badly.

Good luck.
 

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Germanic said:
Also, the customer was shooting NATO Surplus ammo.
"humslr" / Blair has been a little evasive about what he was shooting. It may be because his friend (A.K.A. "the bad ammo fairy") has not been accurate about what it was. Whatever the ammo was, we know three things:

1) Blair cannot pick up a box and truthfully say he was shooting X brand commercial ammo and provide the production lot number of the batch he was using.
2) Blair continued to shoot ammo that was showing signs of being defective by not reliably discharging when struck by the firing pin.
3) FN says he was shooting reloads.

-As a potential plaintiff, he carries the burden of proof to show that he was shooting good ammo and that the cartridge fired out of battery due to a defect in the design or manufacture of the rifle. Presently, he cannot.

Regarding the issue of surplus ammo, a lot of people use the term of surplus military ammo generically to refer to any ammo that was originally meant for the military or came from a factory that produces military ammo. When you hear something is XM-whatever #, that means the ammo was rejected for use with the military. It is not surplus military ammo. It is out of spec. It may be a slight variance or it may be a major variance from the military's requirements; you don't know. When you hear ammo is remanufactured military ammo from military components, that means it is reloaded ammo. It is not surplus military ammo. As shooters, we see these two types as well as ammo made by foreign military ammo companies that are for calibers we use but are not true surplus. And then, of course, there is true military surplus on the market. I have not seen solid proof that the guy was shooting true NATO surplus 5.56.

The incident raises issues for FN's customer service, its public relations, and its legal liability. Giving away guns to people who use bad ammo, will give its customer service and public relations high marks but it will impose liability on the company for things where it bears no fault. The reason to deny the claim is to avoid establishing a new industry custom that could be used against it down the road. We've already seen Blair invoke FN's replacement of the 5.7 pistol for a shooter who used bad reloads as a reason why he should receive a replacement. At its core, this is a business decision. Maybe FN will ultimately give Blair a rifle so the issue goes away. I do not know. The only reason FN gets to deal with the issue is because Blair and his friend used bad ammo and want FN to bear the cost of their mistake instead of the ammo maker, the ammo seller, or themselves.
 

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BreakerDave, you brought up some very good points. I can see both sides of the issue. The only thing that I might question is point #2 with respect to some of the ammo not discharging upon being struck by the firing pin. I think one could make the case this issue could be related to the excessive spring tension on the firing pin. After all, we have heard some reports of the FS2K not striking hardened primers sufficiently to discharge.

I don't want to come off as bashing FN because I am an ardent FN owner and shooter. But I do like to see FN customers enjoying their purchase and being happy with their product.

I think it's great that FN has brought its front-line products to the US market. I wish them all the success in the world and I do hope this situation can be resolved to the mutual benefit of both parties. Mostly, I'm glad no one got hurt.
 

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Germanic said:
The only thing that I might question is point #2 with respect to some of the ammo not discharging upon being struck by the firing pin. I think one could make the case this issue could be related to the excessive spring tension on the firing pin. After all, we have heard some reports of the FS2K not striking hardened primers sufficiently to discharge
Germanic, you are correct. In my initial post in this thread, I wrote:

If you are experiencing difficulty with a batch of ammo, stop shooting. It means either the gun is broken or the ammo is defective. Both are bad and you need to stop in order to avoid an unsafe situation.
Whether it was the ammo or the gun that was having the problem, he should have stopped. By ignoring the signs of a problem, he pushed himself and the rifle into the current result.

By using reloaded ammo, he provided FN with the means to void the warranty. The letter from FN asserts that there is no design defect and they essentially stated there was no manufacturing defect. Once FN found reloads were shot through the gun, they pinned the blame on the ammo and they removed themselves from the hook. The one weak point with FN's letter is that it does not address how the reloaded ammo appears to have discharged out of battery. Was it a hang fire? Was the casing deformed which prevented it from properly chambering? Was the ammo simply unstable? Did the plastic switch that travels along the slide rod break due to improper reassembly and strike the primer leading to an out of battery discharge? (There is an individual on the AR15 board who has a FS2000 where this part is broken but the rifle can still shoot but it also experiences failures to set off the primer.) It may be one of those things where there are too many possible alternative explanations and we will never know.

Like you, I am glad no one was critically injured and I am thankful that FN is still developing firearms for the civilian market when it could exclusively focus on the military and LE markets. Personally, I think offering an individual who blew up his own rifle with reloaded ammo a chance to buy a replacement at a reduced cost is being considerate to its customer. Of course, giving away a replacement rifle would be even nicer but unless something changes or something new is revealed, I do not think it is FN's obligation or responsibility.

Hopefully, FN will start communicating clearly with Blair and give him a solid number for an opportunity to purchase a replacement rifle at a discount. After they provide the number he can decide to buy a replacement or pass on it. I would like to hear that his "bad ammo fairy" friend would show some good character and offer to contribute some cash (at least half) towards the purchase price of the replacement rifle.
 
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