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Discussion Starter #1
I copied and pasted the US Govt Synopsis Notice below that was posted last Friday by the US Army. Very Interesting development. 8)
If I was a gambler, I'd put all my money on a FN product, maybe the FS2000 has a future.... :shock:



W15QKN-07-X-0448
Date: 2007-09-14

Description:



The U.S. Army Joint Munitions and Lethality Life Cycle Command, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ
is interested in determining the state of the art/state of the practice of commercially
available firearms that could serve as Personal Defense Weapons (PDW) for individual
soldiers. The purpose of conducting this survey as part of a research effort is to
identify potential sources of different types of PDW candidate weapons. In addition,
the government seeks to characterize the effects of changes in weapon size, weight,
design, controllability and portability. Potential PDW candidates should not exceed
the size and weight of the M4 carbine currently used by the U.S. Army; furthermore,
they should be no smaller or lighter than the current M9 9mm Army pistol. In addition,
these weapons should be capable of firing NATO standard 5.56mm ammunition. This survey
will provide insight to the government on the trade-offs associated with PDW design.
Interested responders should provide a description of their weapon system(s) including
technical specifications e.g., overall length, barrel length, loaded/unloaded weight,
firing rate, etc. along with any additional information the responder deems necessary
to describe the physical characteristics and performance of the system.
This is a market survey only. This is not a request for proposal. This is not to be
construed as a commitment by the government to procure these items, nor does the
Army intend to award on the basis of this sources sought or otherwise pay for the
information requested. There is no formal solicitation available at this time.
All information will be submitted at no cost or obligation to the U.S. government.


See numbered note 25.

Vendor Questionnaire Form
Personal Defense Weapons (fill in and send in with information)


The purpose of this form is to obtain information from industry to assist in the market
research. Government encourages all interested vendors to submit any comments that they
might have.

Please review the form and submit it to above address.

1. Company Name
2. Company Address
3. Company point of contact and phone number
4. The North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) code for this effort is 332994.
with small business size standard of 500 employees. Based on this information is your
business considered a small business?
5. Commerciality:

( ) Our product as described above, has been sold leased or licensed to the general
public
( ) Our product as described above, has been sold in substantial quantities, on a
competitive basis to multiple state and local government. The development of the product
was done exclusively at private expense
( ) None of the above applies. Explain.
6. Please provide any additional comments
 

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With a shortened OA length, excellent one-handed balance, and chambered in 5.56, an FS2000-type weapon could be a contender as a personal defense weapon for mounted and CS/CSS soldiers.

:grin:
 

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The F2000 is a bit on the heavy side:

"Potential PDW candidates should not exceed
the size and weight of the M4 carbine currently used by the U.S. Army"

I suspect that the SBRs w/ folding stocks will have a much better chance. Plus the F2000 does not have a BHO or drop-free mag system. Imagine dismounting a HMMWV (double time) with a monstrosity of a F2000 in your hands. Now imagine doing it with a 11.5" SBR piston-driven carbine with a folding stock. BIG difference.

The standard M4 weighs 6.49 lb empty, and 7.50 lb fully loaded with a 30rd mag. The F2000 weighs 7.94 lb empty!!

The OAL of the F2000 is 27.3" while the M4 with the stock collapsed is 29.75". That extra weight and ~2" difference is not a whole lot. Remember that you lose a lot of modularity, the lack of a BHO, and the lack of a drop-free mag system.
 

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MSAR 556 might work. Lighter than the FS2000, US made, light, 5.56 -- hmm? :-?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It would be very easy for FN to configure the FS2000 to meet the stated requirements. I think this is going to go the way of a bullpup PDW design, I just hope they don't go with the Tavor. It would be nice to see a US made weapon get selected, but our firearms industry has been seriously limited by restrictive laws and over zealous lawyers, which are the real effects of anti-guns laws, not crime reduction, besides the private ownership issues.
 

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eh 416

Since not many "pdw's" fire 5.56 rounds i'd say their options are limited. I would just go with the HK 416 with a 10.5 inch barrel though it does weigh 7.3 pounds. Delta dumped it's MP5's for it. A Bushmaster carbon 15 which weighs in at 3.65 pounds, outside of that I can't really think of much. The world of 5.56 is loaded with AR platform clones and i'm just not that creative I guess.
 

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The FS2000 weighs too much and can't be easily configured without changing the entire weapon. Heck, it's already mainly made of plastic. The barrel can't be shortened even more because of how the gun was designed. I still vote for a 10.5" SBR with a folding stock (SCAR/MASADA-style stock) as a PDW with one of those Noveske flash suppressors.
 

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Probably will be a bullpup.

This contract addresses a serious problem in Iraq. Soldiers have to carry their weapons with them when they go to the dining facility, resulting is bruised knees and thighs. Also, officers tend to have their pistols fall out of their gucci shoulder holsters.

 

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The bullpup has the advantage of being brought to bare and quickly fired accuratly from the shoulder without the extra step of unfolding a stock. Also the balance they are looking for is unmatched in anything other than a bullpup the fact that it can be held in one hand in the fireing posision. also the F2000 is capable of operating with a 14.5" barrel bringing its OAL to just over 24 inches. A undeniable improvement over the M4 equiped with the same barrel not just for the reduction in OAL but the better balance as well. as for the weight the F2000 is slightly lighter than the M4 the idea that it is heavier comes from the fact that FN lists its weight with the scope wheras the military lists the M4's weight as it sits without a scope or battle package. as it is the F2000 is lighter than an M4 when similarly equiped.
 

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mcguiver-007 said:
The bullpup has the advantage of being brought to bare and quickly fired accuratly from the shoulder without the extra step of unfolding a stock. Also the balance they are looking for is unmatched in anything other than a bullpup the fact that it can be held in one hand in the fireing posision. also the F2000 is capable of operating with a 14.5" barrel bringing its OAL to just over 24 inches. A undeniable improvement over the M4 equiped with the same barrel not just for the reduction in OAL but the better balance as well. as for the weight the F2000 is slightly lighter than the M4 the idea that it is heavier comes from the fact that FN lists its weight with the scope wheras the military lists the M4's weight as it sits without a scope or battle package. as it is the F2000 is lighter than an M4 when similarly equiped.
The F2000 is still heavier and bulkier than the M4, not to mention less modular. The F2000 Tactical isn't lighter than the M4 at 7.9 lb:

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF013&gid=FNG007&mid=FNM0038

A M4 at 6.49 lb is still lighter than the similarly equipped F2000 Tactical.

Dismounting a HMMWV as quickly as possible not made easier with the F2000 no matter how you cut it. With a folding stock SBR, you can quickly dismount the vehicle, provide suppressive or aimed fire and then unfold the stock as needed. You're not trying to hit 1000 yd targets in this type of situation. You need to get out of the vehicle ASAP and return fire without tripping over yourself. The targets are most likely within 75 yd.

A P90 or MP7 are much better suited, but since the requirement is for 5.56x45 ammo, a SBR w/ a folding stock is a much better choice. Look at the FN SCAR. The stock is collapsible AND foldable. It serves a significant purpose in making it easier to handle.

Regardless, if SOCOM is headed towards the SCAR, it won't be long before the other services adopt something similar. Had SOCOM wanted a bullpup, that is the direction the SCAR would have taken.
 

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Read my post one more time C-A-R-F-U-L-L-Y.
The Weight you just listed is for the F2000 WITH the modular F2000 scope. wheras the weight you listed for the M4 is without ANY attachments. do your homework.[/url]
 

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Probably will be a bullpup.
why do you say that?

it seems that the US Army pretty much hates the whole bullpup concept (or really anything that doesnt like the AR15 platform...).

i dont see them changing that.

PS: the F2000 was never meant as a PDW btw. doesn't qualify by default.
 

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Well, I don't see them going for a M4 style rifle with a 10.5 inch barrel. Maybe if they get a folding stock carbine like the Masada or even the SIG.

Honestly, the bid reads like some 2LT was trying to kill time while waiting for HALO 3 to come out.
 

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While I personally like something like a piston driven hk 416 in the 10.5 inch or so for this, An AUG with a 14 inch barrel is around 24-25 inches long, and Magpul has shown a PDW prototype that takes ar mags, along with the micro tavor. All of which would be really small. Hell, I have a modified BM17 that is the same length and less bulky, if still heavier, than my PS90, an SBR'ed version of something similar could fit the role.
 

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I love it. I have high hopes for Magpul products like this PDW and the Masada. I just hope they perform as well as they look!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Just FYI, the US Army SOCOM at Ft Bragg has already purchased some quantity of P90's, for specific usage.
 
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