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Discussion Starter #1
I got this email the other day.


LESS-THAN-LETHAL
12GA and PISTOL AMMO
at DBC Pyrotechnics, LLC.
Greetings!
Alot of people ask, Why Carry Less Than Lethal Ammunition? The answer is simple, When a less Than lethal shell is used as the FIRST round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. That means that if you attempt to defend yourself with A Less Than Lethal Round as the first shot and then Kill the perpetrator with a real round, you have a defense in court. Unfortunately we have to not only defend our selves from the criminals, but there family as well in civil court. We are pleased and excited to announce a new line of Less Than Lethal Pistol Ammunition for Home/Self Defense and Animal Control. These munitions are often referred to as extended range impact munitions and serve a similar role as a baton, as they are used to control a subjects behavior through pain compliance and the normal strike areas for a baton are often used as target zones. There have been hundreds of uses across the country where these munitions have been used to disarm people armed with knives and clubs, temporarily disable combative subjects, and reduce the risk of unruly death and lawsuits.

9rds - 12GA Hornets Nest Rubber Buckshot
[12 Gauge Hornets Nest Rubber Buckshot]
Our Price: $69.95
9rds - 12GA
Hydro-Kinetic Liquid Filled Marking Beanbag Ammo
[12 Gauge Hydro-Kinetic Liquid Filled Marking Beanbag Ammo]

Our Price: $74.95
9rds - 12 Gauge Power Punch Bean Bag Ammo
[12 Gauge Power Punch Bean Bag Ammo]
Our Price: $79.95
9rds - 12 Gauge Tri-Dent Rubber Buckshot
[12 Gauge Tri-Dent Rubber Buckshot]
Our Price: $69.95
9rds - 12 Gauge Fin Stabilized Rubber Rocket
[12 Gauge Fin Stabilized Rubber Rocket]
Our Price: $74.95
5rds - 12 Gauge Lightfield Twin Rubber Ball Less Lethal Ammo
[12 Gauge Lightfield Twin Rubber Ball Less Lethal Ammo]
Our Price: $29.95
5rds - 12 Gauge Lightfield Extended-Range Rubber Buckshot Ammo

[12 Gauge Lightfield Extended-Range Rubber Buckshot Ammo]
Our Price: $29.95
5rds - 12 Gauge Lightfield Long-Range Rubber Slug Less Lethal Ammo
[12 Gauge Lightfield Long-Range Rubber Slug Less Lethal Ammo]
Our Price: $29.95
5rds - 12 Gauge Lightfield Super Star Less Lethal Ammo
[12 Gauge Lightfield Super Star Less Lethal Ammo]
Our Price: $29.95
6rds - 9mm Rubber Projectile Ammo
[Less-Than-Lethal Pistol Ammo]
Our Price: $24.95
6rds - 45 ACP Rubber Projectile Ammo
[.45 cal Less-Than-Lethal Pistol Ammo]
Our Price: $24.95
6rds - 357 Mag Rubber Projectile Ammo

[.357 Less-Than-Lethal Pistal Ammo]
Our Price: $24.95
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call me direct or e-mail me. I am here to answer your questions and respond to e-mails 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Sincerely,

Rian Smith
DBC Pyrotechnics, LLC.
503-209-9075
Save 5%
Spend $150 or more, not including S/H or HAZMAT fees, and we will take 5% off your order! Just our way of saying "Thanks" for being our customer! And for every person you refer to us that drops your name, we will take an additional 5% off their order and an additional 5% off YOUR order!

Just be sure to mention this offer at time of order either in your address at checkout or e-mail us after you place your order with your order # and we will take care of it. :)

Offer Expires: October 31st, 2008 at Midnight (MENTION OFFER: 5OFF150)
 

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Less than lethal ammo! Whats the point? If its a life threatning situation, then use lethal force. If it's not life threatning then why would you shoot him with a bean bag? If the intent is to knock someone out without hurting them, then use a tranqulizer if your into that catch and release thing. Haldol will do the job. To be honest though, I see no use for less than lethal gear.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
devildoc said:
Less than lethal ammo! Whats the point?
I think the reason would be a legal issue." When a less Than lethal shell is used as the FIRST round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. That means that if you attempt to defend yourself with A Less Than Lethal Round as the first shot and then Kill the perpetrator with a real round, you have a defense in court. Unfortunately we have to not only defend our selves from the criminals, but there family as well in civil court."
 

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OK, if it's a legal issue then shoot the SOB with buck shot and after he is on the ground and no threat then shoot the bean bag in the ground. If they ask why the bean bag didn't work, say you missed, whats the difference. If you have to shoot, shoot to kill (not wound) and keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. If the guy has a weapon or presents a threat, he deserves no second chance to threaten someone else. His time is up.

The real reason why these less than lethal devices were developed was due to the lowering of police standards. Having cops on the streets that weight 98 lbs is ri-damn-diculous and well as having rollie poley 300 lbs, 5 foot nothing cops that have to keep their arms out to their sides so they can tell if they are running or rolling.

My idea of an effective nonlethal device would be a M203 type device that would fire a net loaded with fish hooks to stop runners. Other than that I see no use for them.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I know what your saying Doc, and I agree with you. I know it wouldn't suit everyone's needs. I'm still thinking about getting some rubber 00 buck 12 ga. Looks like some cool stuff and ya never know when something like that might come in handy! They also have Continuous Discharge CS Tear Gas Grenade and 37mm Long Range CS Tear Gas Smoke Grenade's and a wide variety of Launchers as well. It's some cool stuff. :?
 

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I could see a use for that stuff. Keeping the next door neighbors dog in its own yard. Hehe.
 

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I could see a use for that stuff. Keeping the next door neighbors dog in its own yard. Hehe.
 

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Shoot now...ask questions later haha
 

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I think it would be a lot more useful for a LEO than one of us plain old citizens. LEOs use force in lots of situations where lethal force might not be warranted. For me, the only time I'm likely to be thinking of force are those where me or my family's life is reasonably being threatened. I can see LEOs using LTL tools in crowd control situation or where several officers are trying to subdue an unarmed person or persons who are a threat to themselves or others. It gives LEOs a wider range of possible response. My scenario is going to be someone breaking through a door or window and forcing entry to my house. I would not substitute a LTL round for buck shot. :-x
 

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scratch that stuff, get rid of the bad guys with a nice double tap
 

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devildoc said:
then shoot the SOB with buck shot and after he is on the ground and no threat then shoot the bean bag in the ground. If they ask why the bean bag didn't work, say you missed, whats the difference.
:x :-D I like that one
 

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My friends uncle had buckets full of brass from a police shooting range and there were a bunch of live rounds as well. I found a couple of 9mm LTL rubber rounds. I was tempted to give them a try but decided against it. Didn't know enough about them to try it.
 

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i think a good example of using a less then lethal round would be like this you got some crazy ex bf or your new gf at your home trying to break in ( he is twice your size and a nut job). He does not have a weapon, but you feel your life might be in danger or just get your ass completely kicked. You call 911, but they are not there yet. He happens to break in. Well you got so many options ( i dont live in texas so just shooting them isnt legal here) You can, A, hide in the bedroom, B shoot to kill, C, bluff to shoot to kill and hope he runs away, D, use a less then lethal round 1st on him, or E, get your ass kicked fighting him. I am guessing using the less then lethal round would not only protect you in a fefence suit, but would show you did all you could do to protect yourself, prior to firing a fatal shot. Comments people? :eek:
 

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He breaks in...... he forfits his time on this plane of existance. First off, if he is breaking in, its not to bring you milk and cookies. He intends to hurt you, plain and simple. No warning shots, no shoot to wound, No bean bags or rubber bullets BS. Blow the turd away.
 

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devildoc said:
He breaks in...... he forfits his time on this plane of existance. First off, if he is breaking in, its not to bring you milk and cookies. He intends to hurt you, plain and simple. No warning shots, no shoot to wound, No bean bags or rubber bullets BS. Blow the turd away.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
 

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devildoc said:
Less than lethal ammo! Whats the point? If its a life threatning situation, then use lethal force. If it's not life threatning then why would you shoot him with a bean bag? If the intent is to knock someone out without hurting them, then use a tranqulizer if your into that catch and release thing. Haldol will do the job. To be honest though, I see no use for less than lethal gear.
I remember the old days of 'rock salt' in the 12 gauge. The purpose of less than lethal ammo is exactly the same. It is to make a point but not kill while doing it. It is also great for crowd dispersion. Who knows what the outcome would have been if the NG troops had less than lethal ammo at Kent State University.

There is a need for it, but not for me. I agree that if I have to reach for my firearm, it is because I intend to use it for the purpose it was designed for - and that is NOT to disperse a crowd and it is certainly NOT to scare somebody.
 

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Tactical, I wish you had left out the Kent State thing, parents tend to get pissed off when their unarmed children get killed. But I agree with devildoc 100% for home defence, on the street I don't know.

I tend to think that I would find another way, just don't know how long it would take the fire department to get my 5,000 lb van off the perp. Just don't keep driving back and forth over the perp, that would not qualify as less than lethal.

Jim
 

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ICM856 said:
I think the reason would be a legal issue." When a less Than lethal shell is used as the FIRST round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. That means that if you attempt to defend yourself with A Less Than Lethal Round as the first shot and then Kill the perpetrator with a real round, you have a defense in court. Unfortunately we have to not only defend our selves from the criminals, but there family as well in civil court."
Call it what you will, any round can kill. Remember the Department up North that was using the less than lethal FN 303 and killed someone. They settled for a large pile of money.

A lot of States if you use a firearm no matter what it's loaded with it's deadly force. Use the proper rounds if you have to shoot. If the shooting is justified you should not worry about a lawsuit that will never happen.
 

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I don't feel too terrible over the KSU thing. Those same pukes that protested the VN war were instrumental in bringing our beloved country to the brink of full-blown socialism today. Bill, Hillary, Nancy, Barbara, Harry, Barney, and the rest. Did I mention all those who vote for them? Yup, them too.

Maybe those "victims" of the NG troops should have stayed in their dorm rooms. To quote Ted Knight in Caddy Shack: "Heh, hmm, heh?"

If you look for trouble, you'll find it. And when you do, don't be surprised that it's more than you bargained for. The DNC '68 was the same way.

Richard J. Daley: " The police aren't here to create disorder. They're here to preserve disorder." :shock:

That was awesome! :mrgreen:

LTL ammo: What's the point? The bad-guy will wind up filing suit and winning millions of dollars for being nothing more than a sh*t-head. (Rodney King)

PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH
 

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Sorry Sarg, I didn't know you don't believe in the "Bill or Rights".

I agree with you on the 68 DNC that was just a problem waiting to happen as well as non lethal being a waste of good gun powder.

But being one of those college puks, I voted for McCain and almost all of my old classmates are die hard Republicans, you really think we are resposible for Bill, Hillary and BO, that I can't buy.

Around here (Chicago) most of the police are carring Tasers, but I agree if the gang bangers want to use guns, then force should be met with like force.

Good luck, shoot straight and keep an extra mag of HP's in your pocket.
Jim
 
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