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Discussion Starter #1
This is where we can throw tactics and drills that are longer useful or valid. Opinions may vary. Remember, this is about tactical applications. I know these may work for you, but they are not the best for you. Some of may have been doing it for years and it works great. So, why change? Well, there might be something a little better. We are talking tactics for big boys who face danger on the “two way range”. If you carry a weapon for self protection, then you are big boy!

The Chicken Wing- If you are shooting small caliber rifles, there is no need to stick your trigger arm’s elbow up and out and 90 degrees. This is more practical with the larger caliber “battle rifles”. Put a fork in this one!

Speed rock. A really dangerous technique, for the user! Most likely you will get knocked on your butt.


Groucho walk- Don’t like it much. Train at walking normally. Most people don’t even have a natural walk to begin with. Shooting on the move has it place, but so does running like a cheetah to cover.

2 in the chest, 1 in the head. Too bad its not this simple to kill people. Shoot them till they stop and drop. Enough said on this one.

Finger on the trigger guard (pistol). Ok girls, get that supporting hand index finger off of the front of the trigger guard! There is not a really good reason to do it.

Port Arms- To me, this is a very unnatural way to carry a rifle because the supporting hand is held high. I prefer pointing the rifle straight down in a SUL position.

SERPA holsters. A good idea gone bad. Sell it to some airsofter and buy a good uncomplicated holster instead.

Forbus Holsters- You just spent $700 on a pistol and you stick it in a cheap holster? Drop down and do pushups till I get tired! Forbus holsters can easily be ripped off your belt, with the pistol inside.

TAP, RACK, ASSESS- More politically correct than TAP, RACK, BANG, but we do not need tree hugger tactics in the real world. The noted trainer James Yeager put it best by stating that if a dirt bag had given you a reason to shoot, why would it change in the 0.5 seconds it takes to tap and rack your pistol? Just do the drill and make the kill.
 

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Iraq Ninja said:
Finger on the trigger guard (pistol). Ok girls, get that supporting hand index finger off of the front of the trigger guard! There is not a really good reason to do it.
I will admit to doing this. I started it a few years ago, and it steadies my gun. I tried to stop doing this last year, and I don't shoot as well. So, I've continued.

Whatever works, right? I know some people state that in can make U pull the gun down. But, except for my HK USPc, I shoot better doing this.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ship,

The finger is best used as part of the support structure of the grip. Remember that the support hand should be about 60% of the total grip strength. Using the finger on the trigger guard takes away a bit of that 60%. For target shooting, it works ok. But for stress shooting where you have to manage recoil and possibly engage multiple targets, it doesn't help.

Also, extended fingers can get broken in close quarter battle. If you break your supporting hand trigger finger, what you going to use if your primary arm gets shot and you have to shoot with your support hand?

Put some more time into it and see what happens. Even if it opens up your group from 1" to 2" at 25 yards, that is plenty good for our work. Try it on a plate rack and you will see the problems.

Lastly, if you shoot better with the finger on the guard, you may have a hidden problem in your technique that is compensated with the finger. Probably in your grip or trigger finger. The support finger on the guard does control the lateral movement that is caused by improper trigger pull, expecially in Glocks. So, the answer is to fix the cause, not patch it up.

Good discussion!
 

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Possibly. I shot isosceles for a while in the early 1990s, and sucked. When I moved to TX in 1996, I asked a range master for tips. He showed me the weaver stance, and I've done that for years. Somewhere along the way, I picked up this habit - I think it was from a Beretta 92 I had. Since the trigger guard is serrated, I gave it a shot. And, it helped. Since then, it has stuck.

I've never had any formal training - It's just something that has helped me at the range and I kept using it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Have you tried the modified isosceles? If you look at what the pro shooters use, they mostly use a modified iso. I can't think of anyone using the weaver. BTW, there is one guy who uses his finger on trigger guard, but only because he has done it for a long time and doesn't want to change.

I use the modified iso, but my main shooting platform is the Center Axis Relock. Check out the videos at: www.sabretactical.com/CAR/car.html .

To be honest, I always heard bad things about the CAR system from people on the internet. But, while in Iraq I had a guy on my team who is one of Paul Castle's master instructors. Seeing is believing! The techniques work and work well. Great for shooting out of vehicles. It has the best weapon retention techniques out there. So, I trained with this guy for a year and ended up getting an instructor's license. If you have dominant eye problems (right handed, but left eyed) this style is perfect. Also great for ladies. Though it looks a bit like the weaver, it is not the same. Great thing about it is recoil control. Hardest part about learning it is that you use your opposite eye to aim with. The reasoning is due to the fact that if you use the vision from the side of your eye, you don't get the double vision that occurs when you shoot with both eyes open in a modified iso or weaver. The wrists are locked and the elbows are bent at 90 degrees. There is little recoil with this structure. Also works great with carbines, machine guns, and shotguns. Check it out...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
speed rock was designed for extreme close range shooting. You hold your ground and lean backwards as you draw the pistol, firing from the hip.
 

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U can show me when we meet up later. And, yea, I've been using that finger on the trigger guard since probably 1997 or 98. I'm kinda hesitant to change now, as it is second nature for me at this point. But, we'll see...
 

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Interesting, the CAR system is pretty well how I naturally shot once I realized I was left eye dominate. I don't have my stance as open and my right arm is extended a bit further. It is definitely a versatile style, I've used it for everything from my Mosin M44 to my XD9 with success; haven't tried any tacticle reloading while maintaining the stance though.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Fraud?
May I respectively ask how he was proven a fraud? That is a big claim. Paul has pissed off more than a few people, that is true. But to call him a fraud is strong language bro. Give me the details, not rumors please.

First of all, what was your experiences in training with the CAR system and Paul? How is it that Paul gets to train people like the Navy SEALS, just a few months ago? How is it that he is constantly on the road teaching LEO and military? Actions in Iraq have proven that it works.

As I said before, it is a tool in the tool kit. Properly trained, it is safe and it works. I know that for a fact. If others who have trained in it have other opinions, I would love to discuss. I am not interested in internet rumors. Like I said, I thought the same thing till I trained in it.
 

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I currently don't have time to argue facts. But I'm not out to spread lies or anything. The people that need to know who he really is already do. I doubt anyone here was planning on training with him so it doesn't matter.

Training the police and whatnot doesn't prove him to be anything. It's a well known fact that civilians can get better training than them. The Miami Police department is now buying AR15's for their officers after that shooting the other day. They will receive a whopping 2 days of training.
 

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whitetiger, i am an iraq vetran, i know i didnt use any of his techniques and i survived but, what you said makes no sense at all. And for you to make that sort of claim you need some sort of coherent statement to back it. if you dont have time to discuss your comment, you shouldnt have even posted it. duh.
 

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Iraq Ninja said:
SERPA holsters. A good idea gone bad. Sell it to some airsofter and buy a good uncomplicated holster instead.
I use a SERPA, and love it. Granted, I am not LEO or military. I shoot in the USPSA (stock) and I am an airsofter.

I respect your opinion, as I realize you have had much more training and field time than I have, but I have to ask, why do are you opposed to SERPA holsters?
 

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Iraq Ninja said:
SERPA holsters. A good idea gone bad. Sell it to some airsofter and buy a good uncomplicated holster instead.
I use a SERPA, and love it. Granted, I am not LEO or military. I shoot in the USPSA (stock) and I am an airsofter.

I respect your opinion, as I realize you have had much more training and field time than I have, but I have to ask, why do are you opposed to SERPA holsters?
 

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Ok I'm curious about your opinion on this. I have been trained to point shoot in a stress situation, It doesn't make me the most accurate guy out there but I hit my target and in the end if were talking about "pop pop po till he drops" Then thats what really counts right ? Or is this method considered out dated as well?
 

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Xlegionaire said:
Ok I'm curious about your opinion on this. I have been trained to point shoot in a stress situation, It doesn't make me the most accurate guy out there but I hit my target and in the end if were talking about "pop pop po till he drops" Then thats what really counts right ? Or is this method considered out dated as well?
Before commenting I'd like to admit that I've never been in a gunfight nor have I experienced enough simulated combat to convince myself of one tactic over another.
The answer though certainly depends on the situation. If you are jumped I would suggest drawing your sidearm and taking the first shot on instinct and aiming the following shoots. I've practiced this in my martial arts class and it works for me.
If you ever end up in an unlikely situation that resembles a western dual at high noon. I would say to take time to aim your pistol. The marines teach to carefully aim each pistol shot, as they have found that blasting towards a target at moderate range quite ineffectual.
I would have to agree. At ranges beyond 10 or 15 yards you are really gabling by not aiming. You may stress or suppress the bad guys with this covering fire, but lethality should be the goal. Your survivability is best ensured through enemy casualties.
I think I'm correct in saying that many infantryman are now trained to aim not just for center mass, but for the spine.
This is of course because of the tendency of people to keep living, albeit for a short time, after having been shot.
The tactics for a lone officer or civilian are obviously different that those used when working on a team. Is there just one bad guy? how is he armed? These things would all make a big difference in your decision to point shoot, I would think.
There IS something to be said for Nelson's Maxim
"Never mind maneuvers, go strait for them"
but he was a fairly bloody minded chap
 

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I think you misunderstand point shooting. I am not talking about randomly pointing in the right direction and hopeing as I fire a round This is hard, very hard I compete in cowboy fast draw and is insane how much I can mis a target 15 ft away!!!
Ok try this pick a target and point to it as fast as you can I'll bet if it was your weapon you would hit it every time. The way I was taught to combat shoot was when you pull your weapon to point your Index finger down the frame and fire with your middle finger if your finger is pointing at your target so is the weapon, usually a little to the left untill you get in some practice. I use this technique very effectivlely on static targets and pop up targets. Mow like I said you will NEVER be the most accurate guy in town but you (at least I do) will hit the target faster then some one who carefully aims in. I dont know if this stands up to modern dya tactical theories or not it's just what I learned.

Hope this cleared up what I meant.
 
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