[taz575]

I was debating a preban M4 (LMT upper, enhanced BCG, stand alone rear sight, preban lower, magpul stock and grip, railed handguard), then I handled a FS2000. Price would be the same (a little over $2k) as I am in CT, and would want a preban lower for the collapsible stock, flash hider/threads, etc. Top rail already on it, interchangeable fore ends (monolith), light is able to go right in the stock fore end, what is there not to like?? I won't need a preban as its already very compact being a bullpup. I tried the trigger, not biggy. It's not going to be a target rifle!

One thing I saw/heard a few places is with some piston systems, the cold weather is a problem with condensation freezing the piston in place when going hot to cold areas. Anyone have any experience with this? Also, is the charging handle problem fixed yet or should I just order a spare?

I'm expecting accuracy to be around 1.5 to 2" at 100 yds from what I have read, is this typical? Not looking for a match target rifle, but a more compact, maneuverable SHTF rifle.

Also, with the flip down front and rear sights, will AR-15 sights work instead? I tried it at a store, and really had to smoosh my face down onto the stock to get them to line up, would taller ar15 sights work? I have an aimpoint that would be the main optic, maybe with a lower power scope as a spare, too.

Anything else I need to know before dropping the tax refund check on one of these puppies?? Thanks!

 

[MrNuke7571]

Hey fellow CT person.

IMO if you're really looking into a compact and small SHTF weapon, look at the PS90, a Steyr USR or a US made Aug clone.

The FS200 is by far not a compact and small SHTF weapon by any means.
Well-balanced but bulky. A Steyr aug/clone has it beat in that regard.
Accuracy wise, same thing, even most AR's are more accurate.

And finally, using irons with the FS2000 is useless. They were made for optics.

*coming from someone that has or had all three at the same time.* 8)

 

[Kalash]

I wish FN would make a 5.56 rifle the size of the PS90 like MAGPUL's design.I like the PS90 but find the 5.7 round lacking in terminal performance.

 

[MrNuke7571]

I wish FN would make a 5.56 rifle the size of the PS90 like MAGPUL's design.I like the PS90 but find the 5.7 round lacking in terminal performance.

Then you REALLY should read up on the ballistic testing me and others have done on the round in the ammo section on this forum.

 

[taz575]

I got a chance to play a little with the FS2K at Hoffmans, the irons on there are way too low. Are they removeable/replaceable with Ar-15 flip ups?? I had a Colt MT-6400C I sold a few years back, and I like the way the F2K fit me vs the M4's. The F2K has the rails, light attachments, etc standard, instead of having to build up an AR. I guess it seems more compact, even though its the same OAL as many M4's with the shorty stock in the closed position. The balance was very nice and felt a little more nimble in the hands, maybe because the weight of it is more over your hands, and doesn't have the barrel sticking out as far? I looked at the AUG's online and clones but haven't been able to handle one yet to see how it feels. It looks to be a couple inches shorter, and not as wide in the stock I'm guessing? But they dont take ar-15 mags, correct? I prefer the 5.56/223 over the 5.7 for ammo availability and commonality with my friends, as well as the variety of ammo out there for the 223 vs the 5.7. I'm a larger guys, so the extra width of the stock didn't bother me at all, and didn't feel clumsy, just the irons are too low! Felt very nimble in the hands.

Do you know of anyone in CT with an AUG or the Microtech clone? How reliable are the clones from Microtech??? I prefer to be able to shoulder a gun before I buy it, saved me a few bucks! PTR-91, Vector V93, Saiga 223 all looked nice but felt horrible to me the way the stock/sights aligned up on me. It took me 3 years to find an O/U shotty that fit me well!

As far as compact, I had a preban M1A Bush (18" barrel, 4" FH) Way too long, bulky and slow to manuever, same feeling as the Post ban Colt 6400 I had, seemed very long, hence me looking at the bull pups!

Just did some research bout the Aug/Clone. The one made in the US has a 1/9 twist barrel. No thanks! I prefer the 1/7 twist, that way I know the ammo will stabilize, even in the colder air! Personal preference, but if I'm going to pay this much $$$ for a rifle, it will be how I want it! Dunno about the Steyr UCR. Also, not sure how I feel about the optic already mounted. I like the rail to choose what I put on, and BUIS.

 

[MrNuke7571]

A few things :

Unless you plainly shoot ABOVE 62gr .223 there will not be a difference between stabilization in ANY air. Which also means you are using heavier match ammo, which defeats the purpose of an FS2000.

There is another US made aug clone coming out soon (some already shipping) that does use USGI AR mags.

The Steyr USR is the only steyr manufactured aug type that you CAN change the sight on currently. You can replace the optic with a rail on these. Also supposedly Steyr will be bringing the A3 augs in soon, of course none of which we in CT will be able to own.

IMO the aug design shoulders and cradles the fastest and best way in .223 form. the only other one that might be better is the TAVOR. The aug is thinner overall than the FS2000 and about the same weight. The thing on the FS200 that turned me off is the front thickness, not the butt.

If you are a big guy, then a fixed stock rifle would not work for you, like you said, so only a collapsible stock-ed pre-ban would. That's why your colt didn't fit ya. I have two AR's, one pre-ban with the works, and in full BattleGear or vest it's the only one I could shoot comfortably with the stock pushed in.

The FS2000's front BUIS is removable, the rear is fixed.
Also the new FS2000's that are hitting the stores come with the 1.6x optic tube. Although I hear they are crappy and don't know if they are removable.

Best thing to do is to try to find someone that has it and fire it for yourself.
I try to do the same with pistols. Shoot them before dishing out $$. Sadly doesn't always happen.

 

[taz575]

Yeah. The M4 fit ok, but it was just really long and clunky. Not very nimble or quick. I have been realizing because I am thick in the shoulders and torso, shorter stocks fit me better as my chest sticks out farther than other peoples, taking up some of the length of pull. I could do a postban with an ACE entry stock, but with having the muzzle break perm attached, I wouldn't be able to remove or change the FSB or do a different quad rail handguard after I got the rifle set up initially. Paying $600 or more for a preban lower really sucks in CT!

The Standard has the optic, non removable IIRC, so thats out. I prefer the 1/7 twist because I would probably be using the heavier ammo for SHTF purposes, more effective at longer ranges if I needed to go out that far. Yeah, its match ammo but the terminal ballistics are supposedly better for the 75-77gr stuff than the 55 to 69 gr stuff, at close and long ranges. How much will that matter? I don't know. I like having the choice in ammo weights, and not being limited by the twist rate.

I'd plink with the cheaper, lighter stuff, and sight in for the heavier stuff. Kinda disappointed the front is removable, but the rear is not on the FS2K. That would have fixed that problem! I guess I could just mount it over the rear!

The STG is getting some nice reviews, but that whole fixed optic thing is really killing it for me! Another thing I like about the F2K is that it is streamlined. The mag hangs down low, but everything else seems blended together well. The front handguard didn't bother me, large hands! Felt good and solid. I haven't really been a fan of front pistol grips, either.

I went to Hoffmans today, but they had already sold the 2k, so I couldn't try the aimpoint on it Gotta find another in state to play with now!

 

[taz575]

Just saw the AXR TPD. Nice! Optic rail, BUIS will work, chrome lined, USGI mags, 1/8 twist (will work with the heavier bullets) for the 16", 1/7 for the 18". I would have to have a perm attached MB, but that shouldn't be a problem!! Just gotta find someone in CT with an AUG or MSAR to try out and a Fs2K!

 

[MrNuke7571]

I've seen a few pre-bans lately in CT go for under $1K, and if you have plans for future silencer or SBR might aswell get them before the next AWB hits and them they'll be even MORE. I just got mine recently.

Also even on a post-ban with a permanetly affixed comp or MB you can still change to FF and non-FF handgaurds easily.

If you are looking for accurate long range shooting, the FS2000 isn't the best option. Most plain jane AR's 16"+ outshoot the fs2000 I've seen and heard about. Heck my first RRA elite tac 16" shot sub MOA out of the box with 50gr reloads.

If you're looking for a fun plinker, maybe HD, the FS2000 would probably ok. Without the real military FN optics I don't see more use for that rifle than plinking and showing off it's looks.

I am eagerly awaiting the TPD AXR to come to light and see how it actually shoots. I was disappointed by the STG556, although the STG556 will have pistol caliber variants coming out within the next 6 months (so they say) (9mm/45acp/357sig/10mm) and be prided justa round $1K.
If that happens, I'm buying one in 357sig. Best of ALL worlds IMO.

 

[taz575]

Ah, ok. That was my whole reason for going preban, was for the FF handguard changeability. I could do a shorty stock post ban and do that relatively cheap. $330 for the lower, and like $1200 for the LMT upper set the way I want. The heavier match ammo wouldn't be for accuracy, but for the improved terminal ballistics. If I want accuracy, I shoot my bolt action 308...it will shoot under 1/4" at 100yds if I do my part. The F2K would be more of a plinker/HD type stuff, maybe out to 200 yds.

I found an article in the SWAT magazine about the FS2000. They said some malfunction clearance stuff is a PITA due to the chamber placement. Would the AUG's/Clones have the same issues??

As for the silencer/SBR stuff, I don't think I will go that route. I have a silencer on my Glock 19, so I scratched that itch! For SBR, you lose a lot of velocity and get a lot more flash. No thanks! Just looking for a plinking/HD type semiauto rifle in .223. My M1A was nice, but too bulky and cumbersome to use quickly.

I'll probably shop around and get my refund checks in, no rush on it yet, just trying to do some research and narrow the field down. I am also looking at the AXR, looks pretty nice!

 

[MrNuke7571]

Yeah I myself am going to be 'cleaning house' this year.
I want to stick to one SHTF rifle/carbine (PS90 right now), and one larger caliber common avail parts/ammo battle rifle. I chose the AR for that, just don't know if I want to keep a pre-ban A2 setup or a tactical pre-ban A3 with an eotech. There is a 2lb difference between the two.

I used to have an HK UMP and as much fun as that was, and GREAT for home defense due to the .45acp ballistics in-doors, it just wasn't as quick and light on target as the PS90 for me at least, so I sold it.

I just built a custom AK74 bullpup which is trying to replace the AR's role, but I still have to do some reliability tests and stuff on it.

Malfunction drills are not too bad on an aug/usr. Probably the same as the FS2000, unless there are soem quirks on that.

Another rifle I forgot to mention is the Kel-Tek RFB due out this or next year I think. Looks great, chambered in .308, not sure about other calibers right now, and they will have 3 varients with different roles. CQB/MBR and Sniper role. with different barrel lengths, etc..

 

[taz575]

I found the 308 to be too much recoil in a CQB setting. Longer range, 50 plus yards, not too bad, but with close quick stuff, nope. Harder to get quick, accurate followup shots. 223 is much easier in that regard! Plus more rounds, lighter ammo, lighter gun, etc. I have my .308 Howa 1500 that is stupidly accurate for longer range stuff/hunting. I'll be ordering a Marlin 336 in .35 Rem, adding ghost rings and leupold vx31.5-5x20 probably for most of my deer hunting since its much quicker to the shoulder than my longer, heavier .308. And save wear and tear on the .308. A couple 870 12 ga's, one with a 20" smoothbore barrel with rifle sights, another with a 26" rem choke barrel with a 10 rd mag extension A CZ 452 .22lr rifle, scoped will do under 1/4" at 50 yds with good ammo. Plus a few glocks, a HK, custom 1911, sig 239 in .40, couple .357 mag revolvers, soon to be a glock 30SF. I am pretty well covered except the SHTF semi rifle. I was thinking of the arsenal or saiga .223 or 5.45, but a friend had one in 5.45 and it never ran right. Had an yugo SKS, but again was too long and bulky for only holding 10 rds. I was looking at a MP5 clone, or a 223 HK93 clone, but didnt like the stock fit, and the fact that the receivers dont take well to optic mounts due to size differences.

The search continues!! Living in CT does put a damper on it, though

 

[MrNuke7571]

I was at highrock shooting my bullpup ak74 (5.45x39) today.
Man, I love that rifle. I've put 400 rounds through it with only one failure to fire and that was a dud round. It's my cheapest rifle to build and to shoot.
Figures. LOL.

I wouldn't consider an SKS even remotely as a HD weapon.

If bears ever attack my house, I'll grab my Saiga 12ga semi-auto gas operated shottie with a few 10rnd mags.

The MP clones are VERY luck of the draw. I've had a CA94 9mm and before that a SW SP10 9mm. After 800rounds they both started having feeding and extraction problems, even after spending money on real HK parts never trusted it, so got rid of them. IF you want that style, I'd say HK and nothing else matters. Get a USC and convert it to whatever caliber you want, or just convert it to a UMP. Only drawback is $$$$.

My order of force escalation is like this :
1 - 45acp handgun
2 - PS90
3 - Saiga 12ga

Run and gun = PS90 can't beat 100rnds of dualclamped mag-ness, lighter than any other main rifle, highly accurate out to 200yards, minimal recoil over any other main rifle and the fact it will only go up in price as things unfold in the govt.

 

[taz575]

I got the SKS as a cheaper alternative to the M1A, but then the 7.62x39 ammo went way up in price. Fed fine, ok accuracy, but not really anything special.

I was looking at reviews of the HK clones. Some run well, others don't. JLD with their PTR seems to get very good reviews, everything else is not too impressive! So that idea got scratched!

Right now, it looks like a post ban M4 with short fixed stock, the AXR, or a preban m4 are my options, with the FS2k as a possibility. But the AXR MSRP will be around $1995, so that may get the nod!

 

[MrNuke7571]

Yeah it is a tough decision. Lots of options, and even more down the tube soon.

The Magpul / Bushmaster Masada, FN SCAR, KT RFB, Steyr clones, TDI KRISS, Magpul PDR to name a few.

Hopefully they'll hit before the next AWB or other form of bans come.

 

[taz575]

The AXR will probably be the first choice, followed by the FS2k and short stock M4. Time will tell!

 

[Adosh]

:?

 

[taz575]

I don't think we were saying it wasn't! The FS2000 is very comfortable to me, but the iron sights are too low, especially for my face. For Mr. Nuke, the stock was too wide for him. It may or may not be as accurate, from the 2 tests I saw in American Rifleman and SWAT magazine, it wasn't as accurate as many thought. That could be from the shooters fault, too! My M4 when I had it would easily do under an inch at 100 yds. My Bolt action will do 1/4" groups when I am behaving with it, still under 1" with all hunting ammo I have tried through it. I've done many groups around 1/3" at 50 yds with my rimfire rifle, some under 1/4" for 5 shots a 50 yds. I like accurate guns in general. If the FS2000 is going to cost my around $2400, I don't see why I should accept lower accuracy if I can get a Preban M4 tricked out, a AXR or a STG556 that can be more accurate for the same price. The FS2K has some nice features, like no need for a free float system, flashlight holder right on the grip, etc. Small size and balance is very nice too. I haven't gotten to play with a AUG clone yet to feel that balance. I haven't really heard enough testing of the AXR and STG to know what their accuracy is. I have heard the FS2k is as accurate as a M4 or better, I have heard it's worse. I am waiting for all 3 to get out there and see what they can do accuracy wise, and hopefully shoot them a little. For me right now, the AUG and FS2K are probably the top choices over the M4, even though they are costing more than I could do a post ban M4 for. FS2k would need new irons for me, which will run around $200 or more. That added to the cost of the rifle makes it very expensive! If I can get those some advantages in an AUG clone or M4, why pay more for the FS2K? I will have to play with each to be able to make a decision, but I am leaning towards the AXR. Caliber conversion features is very nice, too!

 

[MrNuke7571]

to the person who said an aug or m4 is more accurate than an fs2000

any gun on planet earth is more accurate than the person shooting it
s

Glad you like the gun and opinions are like.. You know what.

I am going by my own ability to shoot the rifles off-hand and in crouched position. No bench rests here.

Off hand my old RRA AR15 Entry Tac 16" CAR with an eotech using xm193 gave me all headshots at 100 yards, my 20" USR the same with the 1.5x DoD and xm193, and my buddy's FS2000 last year with an eotech made me miss some hits on the head (I shot with it better than my buddy did eve. That's why he sold it). Tells me, off-hand in mine (and most) hands it is not as accurate as other rifles.

Now if all you care about is bench-rests and mechanical accuracy, which you can NEVER get out of a rifle shooting it off-hand, then you have to do some testing to see which is more accurate. But I recally some magazines already doing that and the FS2000 wasn't exactly top of the list. There is a LOT more to a rifle's accuracy than just barrel length and twist. The whole mechanics of the firing system can make or break accuracy.

 

[Adosh]

:?