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The links not working properly for me. It looks like you need to log in to see it and if that's the case for everyone, could you copy and paste the good parts Coldair? Thanks :?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
it works for me ?
 

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coldair said:
it works for me ?
Probably because you are already a member and it has you logged in. Everyone else is out of luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Press Print or select File » Print from the browser menu to open the print dialog.

Print Close 10--Improved Carbine and Subcompact Individual Weapon System
Solicitation Number: W52H0908CARBINESV
Agency: Department of the Army
Office: U. S. Army Materiel Command
Location: U.S. Army TACOM Life Cycle Management Command - Rock Island

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Notice Type:
Sources Sought Posted Date:
August 22, 2008 Response Date:
September 16, 2008 Archiving Policy:
Automatic, on specified date Archive Date:
November 15, 2008 Original Set Aside:
N/A Set Aside:
N/A Classification Code:
10 -- Weapons NAICS Code:
332 -- Fabricated Metal Product Manufacturing/332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

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Solicitation Number: W52H0908CARBINESV Notice Type:
Sources Sought Synopsis:
Added: Aug 22, 2008 9:17 am
The Army is in the process of assessing the state of the art in small arms technologies and how these technologies can potentially provide the best weapon system(s) for our Soldiers. To that end, the Program Manager for Soldier Weapons (PM SW) Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07860-5000, on behalf of the Program Executive Office Soldier, Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-5422, is assessing the enhanced carbine and subcompact small arms technologies as well as production capacity of the US small arms industrial base. This effort may be formally initiated in late 2009 with a competitive solicitation. To facilitate planning for this pending solicitation, the following information is requested:

o Performance Improvement. Request information on potential improvements in individual weapon performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 600m, reliability and durability in all environments, modularity, and terminal performance on a variety of target mediums. Modularity includes, but is not limited to, compatibility with accessory items such as optical sights, image intensification sights, thermal sights, laser targeting systems, bipods, tactical lights, MILES, bayonets, and accessory type grenade launchers. There is specific interest in improvements to zero retention and zero repeatability. Note: Although this request for information is not limited to 5.56mm NATO systems, it is limited to ammunition that will meet International Convention standards.

o Production capacity estimates. Request information on minimum and maximum monthly production rates for a military carbine and/or subcompact individual weapon, and the lead times to achieve these production rates. This estimate should consider a US based production facility by the third year of deliveries. This capacity should be above and beyond any current production orders or current sales. If new facilities are planned or required, so state.

o Detailed descriptions of proposed weapon systems to include engineering drawings, pictures, brochures, etc. that will convey the principles as well as general and specific capabilities behind the submissions.

o Summarized and detailed test data from any certified test facility that addresses improvements in the areas proposed. Test operating procedures utilized and independent evaluations are also solicited.

o All respondents to this RFI will get an invitation to an Industry Day to be conducted in the fall of 2008. Specific date and time will be announced in the aforementioned invitation.

Interested offerors should submit the information annotated above, in hard copy, by 16 Sep 2008 to: U.S. Army TACOM LCMC, Acquisition Center, AMSTA-LC-WSC-C, Bldg 110, Attn: Bob Egan, Rock Island Arsenal, IL 61299-7630. Electronic submissions may be sent to [email protected]. Submissions shall not exceed 25 pages (8 x 11 inches), not including test data. Font shall be 12 pitch with one inch borders. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. All information marked {Proprietary to company name} will not be disclosed outside of the Department of Defense. No telephone inquiries will be accepted. The documentation provided will not be returned. This is a sources sought notice only. It is for planning purposes only and should not be construed as a Request for Proposal or a commitment by the United States of America.

Contracting Office Address:
TACOM - Rock Island, ATTN: AMSTA-AQ-AR, Rock Island Arsenal, Rock Island, IL 61299-7630 Place of Performance:
TACOM - Rock Island ATTN: AMSTA-AQ-AR, Rock Island Arsenal Rock Island IL
61299-7630
US Point of Contact(s):
Teresa Stottlemyre, (309) 782-4626

TACOM - Rock Island

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Opportunity History
Original Synopsis
Aug 22, 2008
7:00 pm
 

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Thanks Coldair, just a thought as I read this, they want something that has
potential improvements in individual weapon performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 600m
That being the standard, I think the 6.5 grendell is a better bet than the 6.8 SPC. If they said less than 400m then the 6.8 SPC would be the ticket. Just my 2 cents.
 

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I have to agree with devildoc 8)
 

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Hm, the 6.8 SPC generates 2400 fps with a 115gr bullet from a 24" bolt action test barrel, not a 14" M4. Not too impressive at all :roll: The 6.5 Grendel gives 2500 fps with a 130gr bullet or 2900 fps with a 90gr also from a 24" barrel. Much better. The main drawback is dealing with that fat PPC case. It will be interesting to see what they come up with overall.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
ehryk said:
Hm, the 6.8 SPC generates 2400 fps with a 115gr bullet from a 24" bolt action test barrel, not a 14" M4. Not too impressive at all :roll: The 6.5 Grendel gives 2500 fps with a 130gr bullet or 2900 fps with a 90gr also from a 24" barrel. Much better. The main drawback is dealing with that fat PPC case. It will be interesting to see what they come up with overall.
Here are the velocity differences between a 14", 16", and a 20" Ko-TOnics Barrel:

14" Barrel: Ko-Tonics 16" chrome lined barrel with the 1:11" twist.
16" Barrel: Ko-Tonics 16" chrome lined barrel with the 1:11" twist.
20" Barrel: Ko-Tonics 20" chrome lined barrel with the 1:11" twist.

Sierra 90 Gr. HP with 28.5 Gr of H4198:
16" Barrel: 2902 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2796 fps Average.
Difference: -105 fps.

Sierra 90 Gr. HP with 31 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2927 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2821 fps Average.
Difference: -106 fps.
14" Barrel: 2607 fps Average.
Difference: -214 fps.

Speer 90 Gr. TNT with 31.5 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2933 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2804 fps Average.
Difference: -129 fps.

Speer 90 Gr. TNT with 30 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2817 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2671 fps Average.
Difference: -146 fps.

Speer 90 Gr. TNT with 28.6 Gr of H4198:
20" Barrel: 2984 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2854 fps Average.
Difference: -130 fps.
14" Barrel: 2821 fps Average.
Difference: -33 fps.

Speer 90 Gr. TNT with 32 Gr of X-Terminator:
20" Barrel: 2829 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2676 fps Average.
Difference: -153 fps.

Speer 90 Gr. TNT with 32.5 Gr of X-Terminator:
20" Barrel: 2899 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2747 fps Average.
Difference: -152 fps.

Hornady 110 Gr. BTHP w/Cannelures with 29 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2692 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2462 fps Average.
Difference: -230 fps.

Hornady 110 Gr. V-Max with 29 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2688 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2607 fps Average.
Difference: -81 fps.
14" Barrel: 2436 fps Average.
Difference: -171 fps.

Hornady 110 Gr. V-Max with 25.3 Gr of H4198:
16" Barrel: 2523 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2456 fps Average.
Difference: -67 fps.

Hornady 110 Gr. V-Max with 29.5 Gr of H335:
16" Barrel: 2585 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2403 fps Average.
Difference: -182 fps.

Sierra 110 Gr. Pro-Hunters with 29 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2670 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2534 fps Average.
Difference: -136 fps.
14" Barrel: 2400 fps Average.
Difference: -134 fps.

Sierra 110 Gr. Pro-Hunters with 29.5 Gr of H335:
16" Barrel: 2494 fps Average.
14" Barrel: 2423 fps Average.
Difference: -71 fps.

SSA 115 Gr. Enhanced SMK with 28.2 Gr of H322:
20" Barrel: 2558 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2461 fps Average.
Difference: -97 fps.

SSA 115 Gr. Enhanced SMK with 24 Gr of H4198:
20" Barrel: 2459 fps Average.
16" Barrel: 2343 fps Average.
Difference: -116 fps.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
this is from a great guy that is building 2 uppers for me, a 14" with a permanent flash suppressor and a 18 or 20" but his is what he did with one of his latest barrels
I could not believe it, 5 shot range from 3398-3446fps. I checked it against known loads of the pro-hunter @ 2950+-
33.7 gr of 335 and the 105s loaded to 2.50"
Not that anyone will buy the 105s but do not try that in a barrel with a twist faster than 1 in 12.

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