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MOD NOTE: This is a split topic. These post were split from another topic because they were only midly relevant to the discussion of the original thread. As a result, the topic was split and this first post is used as the beginning of this thread. Stryker Enterprises DID NOT initiate this thread and his post is only the first as it was the first split from the remainder of the original thread.






Most all factory 5.7 loads will go through IIA, and EA's T6 would make Swiss cheese and then some :D
Looking to get 5.7 ammunition reclassified by BATFE? If not, then please stop. They make the rules and as we have witnessed most recently, they can and will change the rules.

Steel core 5.45X39? Sig Brace? Steel core 5.56? These are three recent examples.

Would it be a stretch to say the BATFE looks into cartridge reclassification based on performance when bored into soft body armor as opposed to projectile composition in the future? Nobody knows for sure but posts and videos demonstrating the performance of a given cartridge fired from a pistol and the effects on soft body armor certainly doesn't help the shooting community's ammunition choice if they move forward.


MOD NOTE: Thread split.
 

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Looking to get 5.7 ammunition reclassified by BATFE? If not, then please stop. They make the rules and as we have witnessed most recently, they can and will change the rules.

Steel core 5.45X39? Sig Brace? Steel core 5.56? These are three recent examples.

Would it be a stretch to say the BATFE looks into cartridge reclassification based on performance when bored into soft body armor as opposed to projectile composition in the future? Nobody knows for sure but posts and videos demonstrating the performance of a given cartridge fired from a pistol and the effects on soft body armor certainly doesn't help the shooting community's ammunition choice if they move forward.
The ATF does what it wants, and you're right, who's to say if they somehow go through this M855 reclassification, what they'll do next. However, I got tired of people trying to pass misinformation along about what this cartridge can and can't do. I'd rather have clear cut evidence, than some anti trying to pass off internet lore as fact.

The OP asked about the legality of having those rounds in his state. I provided additional information on his state level which defines what AP ammo is, and you know as well as I do, that level IIA is really weak body armor.
 

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The ATF does what it wants, and you're right, who's to say if they somehow go through this M855 reclassification, what they'll do next. However, I got tired of people trying to pass misinformation along about what this cartridge can and can't do. I'd rather have clear cut evidence, than some anti trying to pass off internet lore as fact.

The OP asked about the legality of having those rounds in his state. I provided additional information on his state level which defines what AP ammo is, and you know as well as I do, that level IIA is really weak body armor.
I don't even know how or why this even qualifies as 'body armor'. It's the least restrictive type of armor that cops want to wear so now they are trying to limit my ammo purchases based on this. Next week they will use styrafoam as the baseline for body armor. Wonder what the WON'T ban with the new standard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The ATF does what it wants, and you're right, who's to say if they somehow go through this M855 reclassification, what they'll do next. However, I got tired of people trying to pass misinformation along about what this cartridge can and can't do. I'd rather have clear cut evidence, than some anti trying to pass off internet lore as fact.

The OP asked about the legality of having those rounds in his state. I provided additional information on his state level which defines what AP ammo is, and you know as well as I do, that level IIA is really weak body armor.
The OP: Please review your state's laws regarding pistol ammunition and classification of what is restricted.

M855 is gone for all intent and purposes, as ill placed logic has once again taken a firm grasp over reality.

However, we shouldn't be giving the general populace anything, regardless of the volume of misinformation that's spewed about a given cartridge.

IIA may be as you put it, "weak" but do you feel the need to let everyone who didn't know, including the nefarious types that view goof tube that information? Personally not comfortable with wearing a plate carrier daily so please stop feeding the animals.

Thank you.
 

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You CAN'T apply logic to the proposed ban on M855 / SS109.

ALL .223 or 5.56 rounds will penetrate a Level 3A vest.

NO
.223 or 5.56 round including M855 will penetrate a Level 3 or Level 4 vest!!!

So how does banning M855 make the world safer for me? This is just another attempt to chip away at the Second Amendment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You CAN'T apply logic to the proposed ban on M855 / SS109.
Yes... GCA '68. When the OA93 was manufactured, the BATFE took the appropriate action on the steel core 7.62X39. Same thing occurred with the 5.45X39 - when somebody decided to manufacture a pistol chambered in the cartridge. There are things SE LLC will not manufacture due to the fact that doing so would result in a negative impact on the industry.

ALL .223 or 5.56 rounds will penetrate a Level 3A vest...
And the above is exactly what we don't need.

It may not be realized, but there are parts of the populace that do not know this so maybe, just maybe we should refrain from sharing this information on a public venue so it isn't read by men who have evil thoughts brewing in their hearts.

Same applies to goof tube. Just because you know something doesn't mean it should be shared with everyone.

There is information we shouldn't publicize as it is not in our best collective interest to do so.

It would be a hell of thing if some freak show nuttier than a Planters peanut switched his choice from .380 to X,Y, or Z cartridge because he read it in a post or saw the same being demonstrated in a video published on goof tube that X, Y, or Z cartridges were more effective in defeating a protective garment the poster or goof tube publisher put out for reading or viewing was wearing during a confrontation with the lunatic.

Until the laws are changed and the determination of which ammunition is legal to manufacture, import, purchase, or possess is changed, it makes more sense to keep our knowledge to ourselves and in some cases, keep the metals away from the cutting tools.

Wisdom and knowledge do not always go hand in hand. This applies to both sides of the position.
 

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This has nothing to do with whether it will penetrate body armor or not. It has EVERYTHING to do with re-classifying a specific projectile as "not for sporting purposes" and then banning it, using the basis that it can penetrate level IIA body armor, the weakest body armor that cops carry. So for their comfort, I have to surrender my 2nd Amendment rights? Hey, you know what? I'm a cop and I don't want to wear body armor any thicker than a T shirt. Lets ban every projectile that penetrates a T Shirt because it can penetrate "body armor". I think not.......

If they start down this road, 50 BMG will be next. What sporting purpose can this possibly have? There is no large game on the NA Continent that warrants the use of 50 cal ammo. It certainly can penetrate body armor. And look, there is a pistol that shoots 50 cal ammo. This needs to be banned as well. Then it will be any and every type of ammunition that can be used in a SBR because SBR's can be concealed on your person like a pistol can. And look, if you shoot it with one hand, you have reclassified it into a pistol. What is that you say, no proof that this is going to happen? What about the Sig Brace? Reclassification of a pistol into a rifle because of the way the brace is used. So use the SBR with one hand and it is now a pistol. Yup, there goes every ammunition type that can be carried in a SBR because it can penetrate level IIA armor Then what after that.

I choose NOT TO STICK MY HEAD IN THE SAND by remaining quiet on the subject in the hopes that some government VPC cheek kissing entity who is hell bent on outlawing one of my favorite projectiles does the nasty deed while we all sit in quiet bliss so as not to give ammunition to those that do not know. Who are they? Maybe the 300,000,000 Americans who do not care one iota about this (this is assuming that there are actually 18,000,000 people that care one way or another)? That is who I am going to tell something to that will sway their positions to the negative?

It is way too late to try to put the beans back into the can. The can was spilled long ago and crying about the spilled beans is useless. While I am hesitant to say it, there are about 100,000 people that care about this so bye bye SS109's. Only when they come after anything larger than a .22 LR will enough people care enough to speak up. By then, the ground work will have been laid and your 2nd is gone. There is that Hope and Change that was touted..........People will hope nothing happens and changes will take place.
 

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Speaking of the green tip ammo,... this is appalling! ONLY 6000 shooting give a rip!?

Why is everyone (shooters I’m speaking of) so easily rolling this one under the rug? Do you really think they will stop at just green tip? Seriously!? 2 or 3 minutes of your time is not that big of a deal, but when the next move is to ban 55gr FMJ 5.56 – then will it be a big deal to you? Please speak up now!

Should the ATF reclassify surplus -and widely used- M855 and SS109 ammunition as armor-piercing - it would then be illegal for consumer consumption. Ditto the manufacture, distribution or resale of that ammunition. In other words, it might as well stay offshore permanently if the ATF is allowed to make the change.

This weekend, we received word that apparently many gun owners didn't find this to be a compelling reason to record their objections with the federal government. With only a few days remaining in the ATF's solicitation of comments, fewer than 6,000 shooters have registered their displeasure with the proposal.
That, as one of my least-favorite instructors used to say, is simply unacceptable. So, too, is the ATF's description of criminals as one of the "consumer groups" that is a prime consumer of the ammunition they seek to ban. Since we've rolled out the answers to those ridiculous claims before, I won't keep beating up on that straw argument. Criminals still don't care about the rules; it's why their called "criminals".

Now you know where the ATF stands on a couple of things...it's time for you to let them know where you stand on their proposed changes regarding their "reclassification" of the affordable -and currently attainable - "green tip" ammo.

Until March 16, 2015, the ATF's still accepting public comments on their proposed reclassification. And you still have time to make your opposition known. If you're unable to use anything but email (Washington puts a much higher emphasis on faxed or mailed comments) you can use [email protected] If you choose to us fax (even an electronic one) you can send comments to (202) 648-9741. Or if you use the postal service, the address is:

Denise Brown
Mailstop 6N-602
Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20226
ATTN: AP Ammo Comments


If you don't speak up, you haven't earned the right to complain.

--Jim Shepherd
 

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If I were going to mug someone I would definitely carry a 50 cal weapon. But, really, how many people own 50 cal weapons in the US?
 

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If I were going to mug someone I would definitely carry a 50 ca lweapon. But, really, how many people own 50 cal weapons in the US?

Does not really matter does it. There only had to be one 5.45x39 pistol and it got the whole class of projectile banned.

Just ONE is enough for the FTB to reclassify a whole class of ammo AP and remove it from circulation in the US. If this BS passes, then what about 'bi metal' projectiles. The FTB thinks that any component under the jacket is the core (based on already issued opinions) so technically, all bi metal steel projectiles if they can be used in a handgun, maybe can be reclassified as AP ammo and outlawed as well. Well, there goes all the 30 cal (.308 ) projectiles. There are a whole bunch of 30 cal handguns out there right now.

This is just the beginning. You will be lucky to get lead ball.
 

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I just picked up some ammo labeled as 62 grain ss109 ammo. It was not designated M855 nor was it "green tip". The clerk claimed that it was not to be included as part of the 3/15/2015 "ban". I thought that ss109/M855 was the same with the exception that the M855 was military surplus. Am I missing something?
 

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I just picked up some ammo labeled as 62 grain ss109 ammo. It was not designated M855 nor was it "green tip". The clerk claimed that it was not to be included as part of the 3/15/2015 "ban". I thought that ss109/M855 was the same with the exception that the M855 was military surplus. Am I missing something?
Clerk doesn't know what he's talking about. It would be included in the ban.
 

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Letters Sent To The ATF Enter your information- join the movement and a chance to win Free XM855 ammo How many shooters are *****ing about the possible ban of green tip but have not yet voiced their anger? Stand up and be counted!!!!! NOW!!!
www.wewillnotbackdown.com
 
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