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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been taking some precision rifle courses in North GA at Home | Semper Fi Gun Training & Outdoor Range

Today I did the intermediate rifle course, 100 meters and 200 meters with my Scar 17 and my Primary Arms 4-14 FFP scope https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_4_14X44_FFP_Scope_p/pa4-14xffp.htm

A few weeks ago I did the prerequisite course where I zeroed this scope at 100 yards and it dialed in quickly, three groups of three shots if I recall, my best group was 1" at 100 meters, or 1 moa.
On the way home I had my Scar slung in a soft case across my back as I was unloading all the other stuff from my car. The zipper opened and my Scar slipped out and hit the ground on the buttstock and on the barrel as it fell against brick steps. No visible damage as it fell maybe two feet and no marks on the scope. I did nothing to my Scar until then and the training today.

I consistently shot 1" groups at 100 meters and 2" groups @ 200 meters all from prone where my first shot was by itself and the next two were close together or keyholes to each other. So I think my Scar 17 is capable of even tighter groups in better hands, which is why I'd doing the training.

But the Primary Arms scope had some very aggravating issues that held me back some today. If say I was shooting dead level elevation but at 3 o'clock to the bullseye and needed 4 clicks left, dialing the windage knob yielded 1 moa groups that had moved to 6 o'clock low. Raising the elevation resulted in the groups moving to 9:00. Something definitely isn't right. I settled for 1" groups that are about 1.5 inches high at 100 yards. Because of all the difficulty and constantly making dialing adjustments, was not able to even test it's ability to return to zero, although I honestly doubt mine will.

I originally had my gunsmith install a scope mount and the PA scope on my SKS. I only shot a few rounds through it there, but it dialed in fine and seemed to be good with the 7.62x39.

I was forced to use my PA on the Scar 17 because when I went to mount my new SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 illuminated scope to get ready for some progressively longer range shooting, I found the illumination did not work. I sent it back to SWFA and they said they will replace it, but they said the replacement is on back order with no ETA. So I slapped the PA scope on my Scar thinking it would get me by until the SS was back. For me that seems to have been a mistake.

I wanted to post this because there is not a lot of info on whether the PA scope will last on a Scar 17. Mine seems to have a problem but I cannot say for sure what may have caused it because I would not be honest if I didn't mention that I had dropped it. But it didn't land on the scope and it didn't hit that hard.
 

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I don't know what to say except that those cheap Primary Arms optics are just that: cheap.

I don't believe in paying for a gazillion dollars optics, but I'd rather buy a cheap Leupold or Nikon before I buy a Primary Arms optics.

A 2-ft drop on a hard surface is nothing if a scope is decent, and I don't know if that's the cause for the adjustment issues. Or maybe the adjustment mechanisms just plain suck.
 

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I have their 4-14 ACSS scope on mine. Only have 200 rounds through it so far with no issues. I think their stuff is made pretty well and the reticles are what draws me to their stuff. My only issue I've had with shots moving all over was when the scope mount started to loosen up after about 75-100 rounds. I had to go back and retighten and then re-zero. After that all was well.
 

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I've been taking some precision rifle courses in North GA at Home | Semper Fi Gun Training & Outdoor Range

Today I did the intermediate rifle course, 100 meters and 200 meters with my Scar 17 and my Primary Arms 4-14 FFP scope https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_4_14X44_FFP_Scope_p/pa4-14xffp.htm

A few weeks ago I did the prerequisite course where I zeroed this scope at 100 yards and it dialed in quickly, three groups of three shots if I recall, my best group was 1" at 100 meters, or 1 moa.
On the way home I had my Scar slung in a soft case across my back as I was unloading all the other stuff from my car. The zipper opened and my Scar slipped out and hit the ground on the buttstock and on the barrel as it fell against brick steps. No visible damage as it fell maybe two feet and no marks on the scope. I did nothing to my Scar until then and the training today.

I consistently shot 1" groups at 100 meters and 2" groups @ 200 meters all from prone where my first shot was by itself and the next two were close together or keyholes to each other. So I think my Scar 17 is capable of even tighter groups in better hands, which is why I'd doing the training.

But the Primary Arms scope had some very aggravating issues that held me back some today. If say I was shooting dead level elevation but at 3 o'clock to the bullseye and needed 4 clicks left, dialing the windage knob yielded 1 moa groups that had moved to 6 o'clock low. Raising the elevation resulted in the groups moving to 9:00. Something definitely isn't right. I settled for 1" groups that are about 1.5 inches high at 100 yards. Because of all the difficulty and constantly making dialing adjustments, was not able to even test it's ability to return to zero, although I honestly doubt mine will.

I originally had my gunsmith install a scope mount and the PA scope on my SKS. I only shot a few rounds through it there, but it dialed in fine and seemed to be good with the 7.62x39.

I was forced to use my PA on the Scar 17 because when I went to mount my new SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 illuminated scope to get ready for some progressively longer range shooting, I found the illumination did not work. I sent it back to SWFA and they said they will replace it, but they said the replacement is on back order with no ETA. So I slapped the PA scope on my Scar thinking it would get me by until the SS was back. For me that seems to have been a mistake.

I wanted to post this because there is not a lot of info on whether the PA scope will last on a Scar 17. Mine seems to have a problem but I cannot say for sure what may have caused it because I would not be honest if I didn't mention that I had dropped it. But it didn't land on the scope and it didn't hit that hard.
Consistent tracking is a big issue with many budget optics, I would do a tracking test to be sure. Make sure you put a few rounds down range with a new optic before preforming a tracking test to settle the tight tolerances of the internals into place. A lot of folks forget to do this.
How to test the tracking of a rifle scope | Heels and Handguns


 

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Consistent tracking is a big issue with many budget optics, I would do a tracking test to be sure. Make sure you put a few rounds down range with a new optic before preforming a tracking test to settle the tight tolerances of the internals into place. A lot of folks forget to do this.

Very instructive video. However, this is why I personally don't do all these fancy turret twisting dope dialing. I zeroed my rifles in at a certain range depending on the calibers and what I want to do with them and of course with a particular factory load (I don't hand load). Then I'd run a quick ballistic calculation using the various factory internet ballistic calculators. With that data in hand, I'd go out to an outdoors range and start shooting for real at known distances to see how my zero is compared to the ballistics calculation.

After that, I'd tape the result onto the buttstock. Knowing these drops and then dope for actual in situ wind drift, voila!!! It may not be as cool as twisting the turrets but it had worked for many a decades for hunters and bullseye shooters. And I don't have to worry about trackability or whatever.

With these "battle" rifle types, I don't even bother to print any table out but just keep it roughly in my head. Like my SCAR17 Black with the 4X Leupold HAMR. Dead on at 25-yds and dead on at 400-yds. 1-ft high at 200-yds. That's all I need to know for that rifle.

For my Sako .300 Winchesters? You bet I have a table printed out and taped to each of their butt stocks when I go hunting or shooting.
 

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Only trouble with that fnfalman, is when you extend out beyond a few hundred yards and can't do hold-overs anymore. For 400 and under (or 600 and under with some of my scopes), I just hold over as you do, but when I shoot beyond that, I like turning my turrets to make it a little easier for myself.
 
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Only trouble with that fnfalman, is when you extend out beyond a few hundred yards and can't do hold-overs anymore. For 400 and under (or 600 and under with some of my scopes), I just hold over as you do, but when I shoot beyond that, I like turning my turrets to make it a little easier for myself.
I'm not sniper or competition grade by any means, but Carlos Hathcock pretty much did just that when he did his long range kills.

When I used to hunt, I was an ethical hunter and won't take a shot that is iffy. I limited my longest shots on big games to maximum 600-yds if wind allows for it.

I'm not a long range (1000-yds or more) shooter, so I don't have to worry about that sort of shooting either. If I were, I wouldn't be doing it off a SCAR or a hunting rifle (even nice ones like my two Sako .300 Winchesters). Then I'd have a true long range setup and would do all that turret twisting doping.

This is just me talking about my gears and my shooting preference.
 

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I have to agree with the others on the Primary Arms scope. They usually do well if they are not subject to rough handling or dropped. My friend had the same scope on his Rem PSS. Dropped the rifle taking it out of the rifles case. it fell about 2 feet and landed on the winddage turret side of the scope with dents on the turret and sunshade. When shot it was 9" to the right of the zero and could nit be adjusted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I'm mulling over the idea of an 18.3 ounce straight 16x power by 42 objective SWFA SS scope for around $300 SWFA SS 16x42 Tactical Riflescope | SWFA I have the 10x SWFA SS and I like it, but I need more magnification to get past 200 yards.

And adding a 1.2 ounce Trijicon duel illuminated triangle RMR above it for around $500 (it uses no batteries) https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product3b.php?pid=RM08G


In theory that's around $800 for 20 ounces (less the RMR mount) for what should be among the most rugged and reliable optics setups. And in theory, the RMR should be fast to acquire the close in work and the 16x should give me what would be like a 10x or 12x for you people with good vision.

20 ounces is 1.25 pounds so my total loaded mag Scar 17 carry weight would be around 10 pounds, give or take. Or about the empty iron sight only nakid weight of most other .308 battle rifles. To me, this is an advantage unto itself. But would it be enough of an advantage to offset the disadvantages?

The cons as I see them for this combo:

Field of View @ 100m: 2.2m

For me, targets from 50 meters/yards to say 150 meters/yards or so will fall into a gap where my poor vision will make the RMR guess work and the 16x too much magnification and too little field vision that acquiring the target will be much slower and more difficult than lesser magnification. 3x to say maybe 8x or 9x will have a strong advantage in this range.

I have never used a combo like this so while I like it on paper, reality might prove to be another arguably crazy idea of mine that didn't work out as I had expected.

And thoughts on this combo I'm mulling over?
 

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It sounds like you want your rifle to be two things at once. I would just get an optic that fills one of those roles instead of comprising to try and fill both. Honestly, a good 1-4 or 1-6 would probably be in your best interest if you do more shooting from 200 and in. Im not sure if you have a budget, but Im basing my answer on the amount of money you are considering spending in your last post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, absolutely I want to do several things at once:
Reliability
Light carry weight
Fast to acquire close in targets from standing position
Acceptable accuracy beyond 300 meters/yards, never miss accuracy inside of 300 yards from bench or prone

I have this SWFA SS HD 1-6x24 illuminated and it is excellent, other than with my eyes it appears like it is a 1-2x scope. I plan to move it to my .300 Blackout AR running mostly suppressed subsonic ammo where it will be a good match: SWFA SS HD 1-6x24 Tactical 30mm Riflescope | SWFA

I will eventually get my 5-20x50 scope back, and even it will need an RMR. I'm just wondering if I would be better off to save around 12 ounces (3/4 pounds) and go with a less fragile, less things to break fixed power scope instead, and if so, is 16x a bad choice for some reason I am not aware of? I know that 10x is the standard, but that is for people with good vision to start with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
And I'm really digging the look of that Trijicon triangle recital RMR, I'm just wondering if I will like a triangle dot sight that isn't much larger than my thumbnail?
 

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It sounds like you want your rifle to be two things at once. I would just get an optic that fills one of those roles instead of comprising to try and fill both. Honestly, a good 1-4 or 1-6 would probably be in your best interest if you do more shooting from 200 and in. Im not sure if you have a budget, but Im basing my answer on the amount of money you are considering spending in your last post.
This is the correct answer.

I have a T1 Aimpoint and a Vortex Razor both in Bobro mounts and will soon have Leupold 6.5-20x also in a Bobro mount to go with them.

I can honestly say that having a piece of glass designed specifically for the job at hand has removed a ton of frustration from my life.

Then again that 6.5-20x would be right at home on that CSR-20, lol
 

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I have the same setup on my Scar 17, FFP 4-14 PA scope. I had problems with it at first, but it was due to the generic Primary Arms scope mount that cost $25. After each shot the mount would get loose, no matter how tight it was screwed down. I then upgraded to an American Defense Recon QD mount and that fixed my issues with the scope. I've since put down range 300 rounds with out any problems, and I'm very, very happy with how it's been holding up and tracking. I know that it sounds strange to some to put a $300 scope on a $2500-$3000 rifle, but I've been using Primary Arms products for a few years now, and I feel that I'm getting a great bang for the buck. To be honest, all I'm using it for is range work and putting holes in paper. So far, so good. To the OP, is it possible that your scope is not vertically aligned properly, thus throwing off the tracking?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have my Primary Arms scope mounted in an ADM QD mount, I forgot which one... I will let my gunsmith have a look at it to see if I did something wrong or verify if it is the PA scope that is bad now. If it is, I'll have him swap out the SWFA SS 10x42 since I already have it on another rifle as a placeholder and wait it out for the replacement 5-20x50 I have yet to try on my Scar. I think I will buy one of those RMR's to try out as I have several other places it could find a home if I don't like in on my Scar.
 
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Ive got the same optic. i never really dial anything though as i just use the reticles holds. Id say the drop threw it off. I had an old PA 30mm red dot that did the same thing when zeroing. Dialing in left would make it go down and left, and right would make it go up and right. I ended up dialing the adjustment knobs all the way until they were literally going to be removed from the optic from being maxed out, then started tightening and they worked normal from then on. Weird. The rabge offjcer and i were puzzoed by this. Id contact PA im sure they'll replace it.
 
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