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Hello All. I have been lurking for a bit but this will be the first time I have introduced myself formally. I recently got lucky enough to grab an FDE 17S on Gunbroker and I couldn't be happier....unless of course I had the funds for a quality optic:wink:. That being said, I had also purchased an SDN6 to use with it as well as my .300 blackout. I figure while I wait for my stamp, I'll have time to build the funds for the optic. Now for my question. While waiting for my can to arrive at the FFL, I consulted with a gun trust lawyer in the PA area who actually advised me against the Trust route. His logic was sound enough, as most of us are all aware, our Princess in Chief is trying his damndest to circumvent the law and close the trust loophole and this lawyer sees it as not a matter of if but when the law will be changed to require prints and cleo signoff. He also advised that it could actually be retro active or not allow a grandfather clause, throwing many legal owners in limbo. I would really hate ::FF:: to go through the process halfway and have to start over and since it takes roughly a year without a trust. (still scratching my head why non trust/llc forms cant be e-filed) Anybody have any advice? I just filled out the forms tonight and will have to wait until i can find the time to meet with a Cleo and hopefully get his JH on my paperwork. Thanks in advance- Joe
 

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Welcome and congrats on your 17!

There is is no way to know what is going to happen with the " trust loophole". Take others opinions for what they're worth. That lawyer is speculating what he thinks. He doesn't know. Go with your gut.
 

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Im confused....is he saying that he thinks you should not do a trust because he thinks the process will be the same as cleo/finger prints thus making the advantage of a trust null? There are other advantages to the the trust, such as ease of tranfering "ownership" once you pass away. Upon your death the other trustees (wife/kids) you have named on the trust can take possesion of the firearm without a bunch of legal headache. Big plus if you ask me and a HUGE reason the trust still has an advantage.
 

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Not exactly sure what your question is? If your CLEO will sign off then your good to go; if not then you need the trust? Anything after that is guesswork at the moment.


BBG-
 

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As for the grandfather clause and wait time:

IF, and a BIG IF, the trust laws change and in process forms begin to be returned in error status, you can answer the error status letter with new forms transferring the item to you as an individual and remove the trust. Your application will then return the the Queue where it was when the error was raised. You will not go to the back of the line.

So, as others had said, there are other reasons for a trust, so if you would like to file using a trust, do not let the fear of being returned to the back of the line stop you. You can always amend the forms to transfer it to you as an individual if the forms are returned in an error status due to laws being changed.

How do I know this, experience. I just had a similar thing happen to me regarding trusts and another issue. Something the ATF had allowed for years they suddenly decided they would no longer allow. The form went into an error status, I resubmitted transferring the item to me as an individual, now I am back in line where I was with no further delay......
 

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As for the grandfather clause and wait time:

IF, and a BIG IF, the trust laws change and in process forms begin to be returned in error status, you can answer the error status letter with new forms transferring the item to you as an individual and remove the trust. Your application will then return the the Queue where it was when the error was raised. You will not go to the back of the line.



So, as others had said, there are other reasons for a trust, so if you would like to file using a trust, do not let the fear of being returned to the back of the line stop you. You can always amend the forms to transfer it to you as an individual if the forms are returned in an error status due to laws being changed.

How do I know this, experience. I just had a similar thing happen to me regarding trusts and another issue. Something the ATF had allowed for years they suddenly decided they would no longer allow. The form went into an error status, I resubmitted transferring the item to me as an individual, now I am back in line where I was with no further delay......
BE ADVISED this statement only applies to paper filed applications. There is no changing, amending, correcting, updating, or modifying an eFiled application. It is either thumbs up or thumbs down when they examine the app. If thumbs down, you start all over again at the back of the line. Although it is somewhat moot at this time as you cannot eFile anything but a form 6 and no one has any idea if and when the other forms will be back on line.
 

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Welcome and congrats from NC!
 

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If you want to get into the NFA game its simple - (fish or cut bait) - do the trust so you can get your purchase and your paperwork in NOW (suppressor/sbr) - besides no other fellow NFA owner wants to come back and bear bad news of 'told you so' the longer you wait to make a decision - and while your at it... I would find a new lawyer.


And I want t make sure I read the OP correct:

You already purchased the SDN6 suppressor and have neither a trust or know if your local CLEO will sign off? You do know that with a paper Form 4 and CLEO you will be REQUIRED to submit finger prints and photo to complete the transfer (without a trust/entity) of your suppressor purchase right? And that's IF your CLEO will even sign off in the 1st place.

I sure hope you have disclosed this to whoever and wherever you purchased your suppressor from while on transfer from form 3 to form 3 - should your CLEO not sign off or your do not go the trust route...as you may have just spent money for which you may/may not get back :|
 

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Everything is speculation at this time regarding the Trust or Individual route to take.

I say go with the trust. Any trustee in the trust has the ability to use and maintain the NFA items. As in individual filing, only YOU can use and maintain the NFA items.

If later on you have to submit a photo and fingerprints for the Trust due to a change, then you have to do it. But for right now, as an individual, you have to provide the photo, fingerprints, and the CLEO signature anyways. A Trust will also survive your life whereas the individual filings will not.

For those of us that have a CLEO that will not sign the forms, a Trust or business is mandatory to obtain NFA items. Even if the Trust rules change and we have to go the fingerprints and photo as well as the CLEO signature, I doubt (but anything is possible) that any previously approved NFA items will require that these items be re-submitted, especially seeing as the CLEO will still refuse to sign off on the forms.

Where I am at, the CLEO has already stated that no matter what changes are made to the CLEO signature requirement, he will still not sign the forms and neither will anybody else in this county that could sign the forms. So unless they drop the CLEO signature requirement if the Trust rules change, the ability to obtain other NFA items by anyone in this county will come to an end until someone files suit requiring that the CLEO sign the form, and that issue will have to be decided eventually by the SCOTUS, which means that it will be tied up in court for over 8 years once suit is filed. There will be no fast tracking of this lawsuit because obtaining NFA items is not Constitutionally protected based on the SOCTUS decision back in the 1939 re: Miller, which allows the Government to regulate NFA items.

Ultimately the choice is yours but before you decide not to go the Trust route, one question - how long will your CLEO be the CLEO and will the next CLEO sign the forms anyways?
 

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Go with the trust AFTER you lose the lawyer. He's going on personal HUGE IF opinion only. Doesn't mean squat, and we'll (NRA & Gun Owners of America included!) all fight any action like that anyway. Won't happen.
 

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"Where I am at, the CLEO has already stated that no matter what changes are made to the CLEO signature requirement, he will still not sign the forms and neither will anybody else in this county that could sign the forms."
Wow...that sux!!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Id say what my concern is that this isnt going to be my only nfa item and i would prefer to go the trust route as i would sleep better knowing my family wont have to jump through hoops later if something happens to me, however, i dont want to start the process and then if this law goes through halfway in then i not only have to go through the sign off and start from square one but ill also have to wait until uncle sam finally returns the original check. This was a concern of the lawyer, and believe me at the tune of $500 per trust that he charges, I doubt he just turns away from easy money without having a good idea that the law will change ( he was recomended by class 3 ffl) I guess i really just have to take a chance or not. I would prefer the trust, i just dont want to have to do a "do over".
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Bayonet- the cleo will sign off. I knew i could ultimately go either route. I didnt go the trust route because i was still waiting to see if the legislation would change by the time my items arrived. I prefer the trust route, just not if its going to be a waste of time and money. My package is set to get signed and sent off but i still like the trust route better for legal reasons and e-filing makes it a little speedier. Thanks all, i appreciate the advice. I realize its ultimately my decision but its good to hear opinions and I will consult with another lawyer today.
 

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however, i dont want to start the process and then if this law goes through halfway in then i not only have to go through the sign off and start from square one but ill also have to wait until uncle sam finally returns the original check. This was a concern of the lawyer,
Did you happen to read my post??? I guess not.... Oh well, you can only lead a horse to water........
 

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Did you happen to read my post??? I guess not.... Oh well, you can only lead a horse to water........
Sorry i missed it the first time, thanks for the additional insight. I made some calls and im waiting for the lawyers to get back with some quotes on trusts. The kicker is that the lawyer i mentioned was actually one of the most heavily reccomended. This was what lead me to the doubts and questions.
 

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Id say what my concern is that this isnt going to be my only nfa item and i would prefer to go the trust route as i would sleep better knowing my family wont have to jump through hoops later if something happens to me, however, i dont want to start the process and then if this law goes through halfway in then i not only have to go through the sign off and start from square one but ill also have to wait until uncle sam finally returns the original check. This was a concern of the lawyer, and believe me at the tune of $500 per trust that he charges, I doubt he just turns away from easy money without having a good idea that the law will change ( he was recomended by class 3 ffl) I guess i really just have to take a chance or not. I would prefer the trust, i just dont want to have to do a "do over".
Your lawyer sure charges an awful lot for a NFA trust.

As far as "start from square one", I don't follow. How can the ATF tell you that a previously approved NFA item is no longer approved because of a rule change and you have to start from square one? Will that mean that everyone that has NFA items in a trust or company now be in violation of the NFA because all of the previous approvals are now no longer approved? If that was the case, they would have to go all the way back to day one and "revoke" approvals, somewhere in the area of over multiple of millions of items, if not more? Can't see it. That would mean that all registered machine guns (NFA item) approvals as well would now be void and everyone would have to resubmit. Not going to happen.......

Go the Trust route, and find a new lawyer or do your own. My trust cost me $30 and was done by a lawyer who does NFA trust. He just did a fill in the blank forms and then submit it to the NFA branch for approval. No problems as I have multiple NFA items in my Trust, with three of them being approved just a few days ago.
 

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Sorry i missed it the first time, thanks for the additional insight. I made some calls and im waiting for the lawyers to get back with some quotes on trusts. The kicker is that the lawyer i mentioned was actually one of the most heavily reccomended. This was what lead me to the doubts and questions.
Lawyers get paid for their opinions and you know what they say about opinions.....

It is good that you are questioning the answers you receive instead of accepting them blindly......
 
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