FN Herstal Firearms banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of you may have come across a thread that I started about a 5320.20 approval that I submitted in September of 2014 that I am still waiting on. Well, I am getting ready to write a letter to the NFA branch about how I received a Form 4 (5320 4) instead of the copy of my Form 5320.20 that I submitted for approval.

When reviewing the documentation that I got when expecting a copy of the Form 5320.20, I noticed some familiarity on the numbers on the Form 5320 4 (Form 4) that I got from the FTB, which BTW the two different Forms are nowhere close to looking alike. And then it clicked, that nice NFA Document Number that they stamp on the top of the Form (in my case it starts with FL) such as FLXXXXX where X are the numbers, well it seems that the Form 5320 4 (Form 4 for silencer) that I received in error (not my trust) has the same number as my NFA Doc number on my Form 4 for my SBR (my trust).

So now I am wondering, because I though that these Document Numbers were unique to each particular item based on the serial number, if there was a screw up at the FTB when they did this Form 4 for this other trust (dated Feb 17, 2015) and used the same number on my Form 4 SBR transfer for my trust (dated May 31, 2013). To clarify, the reason my SBR is on a Form 4 instead of a Form 1 is because I transferred it from my corporation to my trust so I would not have to pay the state corporation renewal fee (yearly filing fee) every year that has grown to over $135 a year in Florida.

So for all you ATF Form people (Jeremy from SilencerShop - help!!!!!) am I correct that the Document Number stamped at the top of the ATF Forms are suppose to be unique and are not re-used? Both Trust are still active.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
I believe those numbers on top are the number of NFA items within your state. When I got my osprey PA had ~25,000 NFA items, when i got my rifle can PA had ~35,000 by then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
317 Posts
The stamped numbers on my Forms 1 and 4 are all different, they start with M, R or FL. Doesn't seem to have a rhyme or reason to it...........................Not that anything should.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
All of my Form 4 (paper filings) have the FLXXXXX stamped on the top with different numbers, but they are sequential when I had 2 items done on a paper transfer.

All of my Form 1 (paper filings) have the JXXXXX stamped on the top with different numbers, but they are sequential when I did two items.

All of the EForm filings have ATF Control Numbers at the top of the form (no longer the stamped number) and these are not sequential but very near and end in 252, 259, and 265 which would indicate that they were done almost all at the same time and as one form was being worked on, other EForms being worked on got the next serial numbers, then another one of my forms got a number when it was worked on, etc, etc... These three EForm items were all filed at the same time.

However, in all the forms that I have seen, I have never seen a duplicate Control Number on any series Form 1's, Form 3's, Forms 4's. This is what has me concerned. A duplicate control number on two different Form 4's for two different entities.

I am probably off base but until I get clarification from the NFA Branch on this, I am not going to sleep very well wondering if I have a unit that I think is registered properly, but may or may not be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
317 Posts
If you speak to them ask if the number on/of the Stamp is the important one. All of mine are paper, btw. I am interested in what they say.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If you speak to them ask if the number on/of the Stamp is the important one. All of mine are paper, btw. I am interested in what they say.
The hand written number on my "actual stamps" is the serial number of the firearms or the silencers that is in block g of the Form 4, and block g on the Form 1. They also have a date stamp from when the stamp was "cancelled" - meaning utilized like the post office does, they "cancell" the stamp with a dated post mark. The EForms do not have this serial number on the stamp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
317 Posts
Hope you work it out and get some answers why your Forms are like that. My handwritten ones start with the first letter of the OEM manufacturer then the S/N like you said.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,254 Posts
Alright so if I understand correct you have two form 4's with the same control number as in FL1234 and FL1234. If that is the case there is something strange going one. But it looks like they send you a duplicate stamp instead of approval for travel. Does this sound correct?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Alright so if I understand correct you have two form 4's with the same control number as in FL1234 and FL1234. If that is the case there is something strange going one. But it looks like they send you a duplicate stamp instead of approval for travel. Does this sound correct?
Pretty much. I submitted the 5320.20 in duplicate in Sep of last year for my SBR with a Document Number FL55555. They sent me a copy of an approved Form 4 Doc Number FL55555 that belongs to a different Trust that I have no association with. I just got of the phone with the FTB and am waiting for a call back but the nice lady on the other end did tell me that these are suppose to be single use document numbers. So yes, there are now two Form 4's, with identical document numbers, that belong to two different trust, one of the Form 4s is for a SBR, the other Form 4 is for a Silencer.

So now I do not even know if my Form 4 that has my SBR approval is even valid or legitimate.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,254 Posts
Your approval on your SBR should be good. I bet what happened is that they got some information transposed and combined your information with the other guys when sending you a duplicate of the Form 4. I've seen weird stuff like that happen from time to time especially if they have a new auditor working on it.

If it was me I would just forget about this side of things and focus on getting the 5320.20 ready for any travel that you have planned.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Your approval on your SBR should be good. I bet what happened is that they got some information transposed and combined your information with the other guys when sending you a duplicate of the Form 4. I've seen weird stuff like that happen from time to time especially if they have a new auditor working on it.

If it was me I would just forget about this side of things and focus on getting the 5320.20 ready for any travel that you have planned.
That 5320.20 that I want to get ready to travel with was submitted to the FTB in September of 2014. I do not even know if I can submit another 5320.20 to the same place if one is still valid. Each and every time I request a copy of it (I never received the original approval back) I get crap from them, sending me other documents that are not mine, or just plain ignoring me (not surprising as I am still waiting on a reply to a letter I sent to them two year ago - yes they have it - I keep sending in request on this and they keep ignoring me) and I feel that I am on some secret s#it list because the FTB has done nothing to help me in the last three years except approve three Form 4's for cans, and the only reason they did that is because money was involved.

I am pretty tired of this.

A mistake now and then is pitiful but acceptable. What they are doing to me is downright malicious..........
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,254 Posts
I doubt that they are efficient enough to target anyone but it sure seems that way doesn't it.

So I just talked to my ATF liaison here and was told that they don't have anyone specific assigned to the 5320.20 so they just do them as they come across their desk. My guess is that they don't get paid much attention. Any rate I've got someone checking to see if we can fast track you through the system and get you one approved. If you want you can email me a completed 5320.20 just in-case I can get it done for you. No promises but we are going to try for sure.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I doubt that they are efficient enough to target anyone but it sure seems that way doesn't it.

So I just talked to my ATF liaison here and was told that they don't have anyone specific assigned to the 5320.20 so they just do them as they come across their desk. My guess is that they don't get paid much attention. Any rate I've got someone checking to see if we can fast track you through the system and get you one approved. If you want you can email me a completed 5320.20 just in-case I can get it done for you. No promises but we are going to try for sure.
Jeremy, thanks. But the 5320.20 was already approved in Sep of last year for the full year and is due to expire this September, or at least that is what they told me when I called them last Nov and they told me to wait 30 days for the snail mail before I call them back. So there is already an approved 5320.20, I just want a copy of it mailed or emailed to me, which seems to be impossible for the FTB to accomplish successfully.

And from what I read, you can not submit a request for another 5320.20 to the same place if an approval already exist for the time frame that you are requesting. Hosed if you do, hosed if you don't.....

I am just going to submit a 5320.20 for every state that allows SBRs, and each one for a year period of time, that way I am covered if I go to NH via West Virginia instead of directly up I-95, which seems to be another issue, you have to take the most direct route from point A to point B and any minor deviation can result in you being prosecuted, unless you have a separate 5320.20 for that minor deviation. And then I was told by FTB that if I do an overnight on the way, I have to have another 5320.20 for the overnight.

Now the pisser is if I go via motor home as my means of travel, I never know what camp-ground I will be staying at until I find it, and this is due to potential break downs, delays, road construction, detours, medical emergencies, or what ever can happen when you travel.

They seem to be using the 5320.20 as a means to RESTRICT your travel with an authorize NFA item, which is not the intent of the law. The intent is to let them know that you are going from point A to point B, not to have to tell them every second of every minute or every day of where you and the NFA item are going to be during your trip.

Gotta tell you, concrete is not safe around me right now......:th_bang:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,254 Posts
Oh sorry I must have missed the part that it was approved already. You know you could always just get a Sig brace ;)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,254 Posts
Hey just got an update. You should be able to call frontline and they can transfer you to the examiner that has it. Then you should be able to talk to them direct.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hey just got an update. You should be able to call frontline and they can transfer you to the examiner that has it. Then you should be able to talk to them direct.
"Frontline...." Good one.

I am still waiting far a call back from J on this. Hopefully, it will be before the .20 expires in September.....
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
On my third day post contacting the NFA Branch about the duplicate document number and the 5320.20 (again). Still no reply, call back. Is it any wonder that I feel that I'm on some type of screw him list......
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Oh sorry I must have missed the part that it was approved already. You know you could always just get a Sig brace ;)
I have a Sig brace for my AR15 pistol.... Isn't that a hoot, an AR15 pistol with a Sig brace can be moved just about anywhere in the US with no approval required but because one firearm has a stock and the other does not, one is a SBR and the other is not.

Good thing I have a thick skull, but there is plenty of broken concrete around here right now......;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
757 Posts
They seem to be using the 5320.20 as a means to RESTRICT your travel with an authorize NFA item, which is not the intent of the law. The intent is to let them know that you are going from point A to point B, not to have to tell them every second of every minute or every day of where you and the NFA item are going to be during your trip.

Gotta tell you, concrete is not safe around me right now......:th_bang:
Sorry you're still trying to figure this one out. AND...I know it's preaching to the Choir..but I believe that is the INTENT of the Law...:th_anim_43:
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,030 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Sorry you're still trying to figure this one out. AND...I know it's preaching to the Choir..but I believe that is the INTENT of the Law...:th_anim_43:
I think the intent of the law was for registration. BATFE wrote the rules to make it more cumbersome. Typical that Congress passes the law, but left it to BATFE to promulgate the regulations concerning the law. So they wrote the regulations so that if you stick it up your arse, they want to know about it.

If you look in the NFA book, the law is quite specific. But the BATFE requirements within the rules they wrote to implement the law are way more that what the law required.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top