FN Herstal Firearms banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,531 Posts
Discussion Starter #1


Posted by Andrew Branca

I’ve owned and shot firearms since my age could be measured in single digits. I’ve actively engaged in firearms competition since I was in my teens. I’ve carried a lawfully concealed firearm on my person pretty much every day of my adult life.


I’ve been an NRA instructor since my 20s, and have personally taught a great many people—many of them women overcoming the horror of sexual assault—how to handle firearms safely and, if necessary, to effectively stop a deadly attack upon themselves or their family.


I’ve been an NRA Life Member for something like a couple of decades, and consider myself a Second Amendment absolutist. Not only do I think universal background checks would be a bad policy to adopt, I think all current background check systems are a laughable and useless infringement on the rights of the law abiding that have zero impact on denying access to guns by prohibited persons, and should be banned forthwith.
I think that anything other than Constitutional Carry, in every state, as well as the District of Columbia and every territory that answers to American sovereignty, is an inexcusable affront to the very fiber of the United States Constitution.


I also think that anybody engaged in the practice of “Open Carry in YOUR FACE!!!” (henceforth “OCIYF!”) is behaving like a jackass.


Actually, I think they’re worse than that, but I’m trying to keep this a family-friendly post.
What, you might ask, is “OCIYF!”? It’s an activity, usually orchestrated among multiple participants, to openly carry firearms for the deliberate purpose of drawing attention to themselves, usually by means of frightening a populace unfamiliar with the sight or practice of open carry. They typically to do this to increasing degrees until they compel action against their “OCIYF!” activities, at which point they express outrageously outraged outrage.
To augment the fear and reaction they induce, for example, they do not limit their open carry to a handgun in a secure holster—a sight every citizen is familiar with in their day-to-day lives, if only as worn by police officers. Oh, no, that won’t attract them the degree of attention they so desperately and petulantly seek.


Instead of taking a low-key, holstered-pistols-only approach that would serve more than adequately to assert their “right” to open carry, they instead escalate to the open carry of long guns that look to the low-information citizen precisely like the weapons with which we arm our soldiers to slay our Nation’s enemies, and that are precisely the weapons the gun control lobby fights most vigorously to turn public sentiment against. Good job, geniuses.
Ask the “OCIYF!” crowd what their goal is and they’ll tell you it’s to “normalize” public attitudes toward the open carry of long guns in the casual course of running day-to-day errands.


How utterly stupid. It has never been normal in any part of American history (outside of lawless frontier territories) for the citizenry to arm themselves with state-of-the-art long guns while simply running errands around town, much less while engaged in the momentary luxury of purchasing a cup of coffee or a mid-day meal.


The “OCIYF!” crowd, then, is not truly trying to return to a more enlightened gun-rights age of American history where the carry of long guns was unremarkable, for no such time ever existed. Rather they are attempting to bring on their fantasy vision of an American culture they’d like to see emerge. Ironically, a fantasy vision they make increasingly unlikely with every demonstration that frightens the populace whose electoral will ultimately determine whether the Second Amendment has teeth and is respected or instead becomes a kissing cousin of the Tenth.
Further, it’s not merely the “sheep” among American citizens that take alarm at the sight of one or several people swaggering into my local Starbucks or Chipotle, ARs dangling awkwardly from single-point “operator” lanyards, muzzles dancing recklessly at a floor covered in people’s feet and young children.


I’ve described my gun rights “cred.” If I’m in that Starbucks, and such an “OCIYF!” crowd strolls in, they’ve brightened themselves considerably on my personal “threat radar.” As is my practice any time such brightening occurs, my first move after having identified the threat is to assess imminence, followed by immediately vacating the area.


That, gentlemen, is the degree of alarm experienced, and evasion performed, by someone with a life around guns, more than a few rounds down the barrel of an AR, an effective personal defensive weapon on my hip, and many years of training and practice in its use.


What do you imagine goes through the mind of a young mother there with her small daughter, the office clerk from the nearby bank, the elderly couple sitting in the corner? None of these perfectly normal people are likely to have either the physical or mental capability of engaging such a perceived threat should it become realized. It wouldn’t surprise me at all that they were wondering if today was the day they were going to die.
Wining hearts and minds, eh?


Another rationale offered by the “OCIYF!” crew is that they are merely strengthening their Second Amendment rights through the exercise of those rights. Indeed, they’ll be happy to imply that it’s not they who are the problem, but rather that the problem lies with those of us who don’t engage in “OCIYF!” who “hide” our Second Amendment rights—after all, if we don’t use our gun rights, we’ll lose our gun rights.


Here’s some breaking news for you “OCIYF!” people:


YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO CARRY A FIREARM INTO A PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESS.



None. Zero. Zilch. Zip.


The Second Amendment forbids the Federal government—and since McDonald also the individual state governments—from infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Key word: government.
The Second Amendment does nothing whatever to constrain the rights of private property owners to determine for themselves whether to allow the carry of guns—concealed or open—on their property.


To put it even more simply, when you are on someone else’s property you are there as an invited guest. You stay at their pleasure, and under their rules, rules that only they are entitled to define. Make your host unhappy for any reason whatever and they are entirely within their rights to order you to leave. Refuse to comply and you’ve become a criminal guilty of trespass.


So anytime you hear the words “Second Amendment” or “gun rights” emerge as a rationale from an “OCIYF!” crew that has herded into a totally inoffensive Starbucks or Chipotle, you can be certain from the start that they have utterly no idea what they’re talking about.


Furthermore, having companies such as Starbucks and Chipotle make national headquarters-level pronouncements that the carrying of guns is no longer welcome on their properties is a wholly predictable outcome of “OCIYF!” activity.


Both Starbucks and Chipotle were initially entirely neutral on the “guns on our property,” issue, stating simply that their stores abided by the local laws where they were located. Really, they didn’t care, or they didn’t care enough to make any formal decisions about the matter. Abide by the law, live-and-let-live, and all was good.
I’ve personally been in scores of Starbucks and Chipotles while lawfully armed, and never had the slightest complaint from management, staff, or customers.


Why did I encounter so little resistance, and the “OCIYF!” crew so much? Because I didn’t constitute a substantive threat to the one thing both those businesses, indeed any business, does care a great deal about: their business. And, by extension, the willingness of their customers to come, buy, and come back again.
Forced to choose between the half-dozen “OCIYF!” gang banging their AR’s off the furniture every other Saturday on the one hand and the many thousands of regular non-threatening customers on the other, only a fool would believe they’d make any choice but the latter.


Incidentally, much the same applies to being out in public—think of it as the public’s “private property.” It’s certainly true that there are some places in the country where open carry in public might go unremarked. In such areas, the “host” is not averse to open carry, by definition.


Conversely, there are others where even though open carry is legal a group of non-uniformed men traipsing around in public with ARs is likely to result in a police response. It is precisely these types of areas that the “OCIYF!” group targets for their demonstrations, deliberately to encourage such a response. Just as the case when they crowd their armed selves into a Starbucks or Chipotle, they have the same misguided and childish goals when they do so in a public forum they know to be deeply troubled by such armed demonstrations.


I don’t expect there’s much chance of rationally changing the minds of the “OCIYF!” crowd. A person who hasn’t learned commonsense good manners and self-interest by the time they’re old enough to purchase firearms isn’t likely to do so thereafter.


I’m instead talking to all the other gun owners out there who, like me, have fought for more than a generation to turn back the tide from the dark days of the 1990s, to bring gun ownership and armed self-defense out of the shadows and back into the light of respectability, to bring lawful concealed carry from a handful of states to nearly the entire country, to make the use of firearms an easily defensible recreational activity for the entire family.
In other words, I’m talking to all of you non-“OCIYF!” folks who have spent much of your lives successfully normalizing guns again in American life.


If you’ve watched the news stories about Starbucks and Chipotle making corporate-level decisions to ban lawfully carried guns from their businesses, and had the vague sense that there was someone peeing in the pool—well, you were right.


Someone is. And they’re called “OCIYF!”


–-Andrew, @LawSelfDefense

More: [url]http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/05/op-ed-open-carry-activists-score-yet-another-own-goal/


[/URL]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,474 Posts
I look upon these people the same way I look upon people who wear T shirts with obscene words into Wall Mart where children are present, and the ubiquitous Calvin charactor on car windows urinating on various objects. yes the first amendment gives you the right to display these objects but they show you to be an obnoxious jerk. It is one thing to exercise low key open carry but quite another when you use in your face tactics that do nothing more than cause alarm in people not used to such displays of firepower.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,731 Posts
This guy is actually advocating restricting OCing long guns such as shotguns and rifles, AND people in our community is actually supporting that?! Incredible. I never thought I'd see the day when our own start arguing FOR limiting our 2nd amendment rights. All the antis have to do is point to this article and the people agreeing with it and say "see, even these 'gun nuts' think shotguns and 'assault rifles' are overboard and not necessary to self defense. we should ban them".

That said, I don't disagree with everything stated there, for one, business do have the rights to refuse and eject anyone carrying a weapon on their premise. But defending their rights to do so is very different from supporting that decision. We should do everything we can to see that policy reversed, not berating the people who have cause the business to enact that policy to begin with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,776 Posts
Let's say you are seated in your local restaurant with your family, you and your wife are both carrying concealed or not. You hear the front door open and in steps a single guy with a long gun over his shoulder and a bandoleer of ammunition. What is your immediate thought?

IMO, it is going to be, "THREAT!"

The real irony? This guys looks exactly like the reason I want to carry concealed, any threat to my family.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,466 Posts
This guy is actually advocating restricting OCing long guns such as shotguns and rifles, AND people in our community is actually supporting that?! Incredible. I never thought I'd see the day when our own start arguing FOR limiting our 2nd amendment rights. All the antis have to do is point to this article and the people agreeing with it and say "see, even these 'gun nuts' think shotguns and 'assault rifles' are overboard and not necessary to self defense. we should ban them".
Perhaps i missed it, but i see nowhere in there where he is advocating restricting their OC rights. He's just calling them morons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,731 Posts
Let's say you are seated in your local restaurant with your family, you and your wife are both carrying concealed or not. You hear the front door open and in steps a single guy with a long gun over his shoulder and a bandoleer of ammunition. What is your immediate thought?

IMO, it is going to be, "THREAT!"

They real irony? This guys looks exactly like the reason I want to carry concealed, any threat to my family.
I think the real irony here is now you know how average joe who knows nothing about guns see those of us in the gun community. And that's why they want to take them away.

It's all in the context. In the above scenario, if the man wasn't acting aggressively or suspiciously there's no reason for me to see him as a threat. Frankly I see more of a threat from a guy who is aggressive but unarmed than a man who is armed but not hostile. As gun owners I think we should know better than to judge someone by the stereotype the popular media propagates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: P-Factor

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,731 Posts
Perhaps i missed it, but i see nowhere in there where he is advocating restricting their OC rights. He's just calling them morons.
This certainly sounds like he's advocate against OC long guns to me:
Instead of taking a low-key, holstered-pistols-only approach that would serve more than adequately to assert their “right” to open carry, they instead escalate to the open carry of long guns that look to the low-information citizen precisely like the weapons with which we arm our soldiers to slay our Nation’s enemies, and that are precisely the weapons the gun control lobby fights most vigorously to turn public sentiment against. Good job, geniuses.
How utterly stupid. It has never been normal in any part of American history (outside of lawless frontier territories) for the citizenry to arm themselves with state-of-the-art long guns while simply running errands around town, much less while engaged in the momentary luxury of purchasing a cup of coffee or a mid-day meal.
It's not so much he's saying that the Federal government should regulate us as much as he's saying we should restrict ourselves. But rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them, they are likely to be taken away by oppositions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: P-Factor

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,466 Posts
This certainly sounds like he's advocate against OC long guns to me:




It's not so much he's saying that the Federal government should regulate us as much as he's saying we should restrict ourselves. But rights are like muscles, if you don't exercise them, they are likely to be taken away by oppositions.
I think we should restrict ourselves. Tell me exactly how doing this will change public opinion in our favor, and i'll join your side. But i suspect you can't. And I'm sorry, i just don't buy that nonsense about muscles, it just doesn't wash. This is about common sense and rationality. And i see none in the flaunting of your rights, merely for shock value. Do you advocate standing in public screaming obscenities merely to advocate free speech? What would you think of a person who did this? Do you think this tactic would be a good one, or a bad one.

Separately, I'd like someone to explain to me the good sense, or need, to OC a slung rifle in to any private business. Why would this be a better, more utilitarian decision than a sidearm, concealed or otherwise? Can you convince me of it's real tactical advantage *for self defense?

*edit
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,731 Posts
I think we should restrict ourselves. Tell me exactly how doing this will change public opinion in our favor, and i'll join your side. But i suspect you can't. And I'm sorry, i just don't buy that nonsense about muscles, it just doesn't wash. This is about common sense and rationality. And i see none in the flaunting of your rights, merely for shock value. Do you advocate standing in public screaming obscenities merely to advocate free speech? What would you think of a person who did this? Do you think this tactic would be a good one, or a bad one.
Tell me exactly how doing anything will not enable the popular media to spin it in a way that will change public opinion against us. I suspect you can't either. Again with the term common sense and rationality, there's no sense or reason in any of this just pure emotion. What you are advocating is that we cater to these emotions for the sake of ...what? I don't know.

I'm not saying these kind of protest help our cause but it's no where as nearly damaging as you and many other make it out to be. Mass shootings on the other hand are. Going back to a recent video by Colion Noir, mass shooters look for easy targets of opportunity, if one walks into a restaurant where there are a few "morons" carrying similar "evil looking assault rifles" as he, you think he wouldn't hesistate to carry out the shooting? I think not.

Separately, I'd like someone to explain to me the good sense, or need, to OC a slung rifle in to any private business. Why would this be a better, more utilitarian decision than a sidearm, concealed or otherwise? Can you convince me of it's real tactical advantage?
First explain to me the good sense, or need, for a rifle in any home. Why would this be a better, more utilitarian decision than a sidearm, concealed or otherwise? Can you convince me of it's real tactical advantage?
 
  • Like
Reactions: P-Factor

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
Texas it is illegal to OC a pistol, unless it is of the black powder variety IIRC. Rifles and shotguns are completely legal.

All of my vehicles are open top or 2 wheeled except my work truck. Say I took my jeep to the range. I have a lock box for a few pistols, but no matter how far I break my scar down it will not fit. Now to or from the range if I want to grab a drink or something I'm not just gonna leave an unsecured rifle in the jeep. I'm going to sling it and take it with me. That is the most responsible thing I can do in that situation. But I guess according to that guy, it makes me a jackass.


Sent from my iPhone since my tin-foil hat prevents psychokinesis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,466 Posts
Tell me exactly how doing anything will not enable the popular media to spin it in a way that will change public opinion against us. I suspect you can't either. Again with the term common sense and rationality, there's no sense or reason in any of this just pure emotion. What you are advocating is that we cater to these emotions for the sake of ...what? I don't know.
For the sake of not turning public opinion AGAINST US. I care not a wit about the media and their spin. I'd say a good portion of the voting public understands this dynamic VERY WELL by now. So, i trust they don't use what is is the MSM exclusively to make their decisions. So by educating people with calm, reasoned arguments, rather then screaming the F word in public, we can make headway. There is reason in everything. Which is what rational people on our side should look for, promote, and explain. These losers are doing NONE of that. They're posing for photos.

I'm not saying these kind of protest help our cause but it's no where as nearly damaging as you and many other make it out to be. Mass shootings on the other hand are. Going back to a recent video by Colion Noir, mass shooters look for easy targets of opportunity, if one walks into a restaurant where there are a few "morons" carrying similar "evil looking assault rifles" as he, you think he wouldn't hesistate to carry out the shooting? I think not.
Not only do they not help, they hurt it. End of story. Why would you be for something that hurts our cause?



First explain to me the good sense, or need, for a rifle in any home. Why would this be a better, more utilitarian decision than a sidearm, concealed or otherwise? Can you convince me of it's real tactical advantage?
I can for me.. From a familiar and fixed position, the rifle packs superior energy and has more capacity. I do not need the element of surprise or the added maneuverability a pistol would afford.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,466 Posts
Texas it is illegal to OC a pistol, unless it is of the black powder variety IIRC. Rifles and shotguns are completely legal.

All of my vehicles are open top or 2 wheeled except my work truck. Say I took my jeep to the range. I have a lock box for a few pistols, but no matter how far I break my scar down it will not fit. Now to or from the range if I want to grab a drink or something I'm not just gonna leave an unsecured rifle in the jeep. I'm going to sling it and take it with me. That is the most responsible thing I can do in that situation. But I guess according to that guy, it makes me a jackass.


Sent from my iPhone since my tin-foil hat prevents psychokinesis.
Not to be a know-it-all, but i can think of several ways around that problem.......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
For the sake of not turning public opinion AGAINST US. I care not a wit about the media and their spin. I'd say a good portion of the voting public understands this dynamic VERY WELL by now. So, i trust they don't use what is is the MSM exclusively to make their decisions.
Me thinks you have too much faith in the intelligence of the voting population.




Sent from my iPhone since my tin-foil hat prevents psychokinesis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,466 Posts
For me it is not, as you call it, a 'problem', purely my right. Out here in rural Texas, firearms are a very common thing.


Sent from my iPhone since my tin-foil hat prevents psychokinesis.
Having lived in rural Texas all my life, i agree. But, as for me, i've never, ever, ever, seen anyone OCing a long gun in any establishment i've been in. In the rural Texas i'm from, you leave the gun in the truck, because you know nobody is going to mess with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
Having lived in rural Texas all my life, i agree. But, as for me, i've never, ever, ever, seen anyone OCing a long gun in any establishment i've been in. In the rural Texas i'm from, you leave the gun in the truck, because you know nobody is going to mess with it.
You must be a very trusting individual then. In my experience, that can bite you in the a$$.


Sent from my iPhone since my tin-foil hat prevents psychokinesis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,731 Posts
For the sake of not turning public opinion AGAINST US. I care not a wit about the media and their spin. I'd say a good portion of the voting public understands this dynamic VERY WELL by now. So, i trust they don't use what is is the MSM exclusively to make their decisions. So by educating people with calm, reasoned arguments, rather then screaming the F word in public, we can make headway. There is reason in everything. Which is what rational people on our side should look for, promote, and explain. These losers are doing NONE of that. They're posing for photos.
Sorry to break it to you, but if they are not already supporting us, they are already against us. If you care about public opinion then you better start caring about the media and their spin, because they are critical in shaping it. You would be extremely naive to deny that's the case. Sad reality of our political landscape is "educating people with calm, reasoned arguments" approach has NEVER EVER won a political campaign or movement.

And as cintidude pointed out, you have way too much faith in the voting population.

Not only do they not help, they hurt it. End of story. Why would you be for something that hurts our cause?
Except they are not the one hurting our cause, it's the gun grabbers that are hurting it. Anything we do they will find some way to spin it against us.

I can for me.. From a familiar and fixed position, the rifle packs superior energy and has more capacity. I do not need the element of surprise or the added maneuverability a pistol would afford.
And how exactly does the rifle loose those tactical advantages outside of your home?

In the rural Texas i'm from, you leave the gun in the truck, because you know nobody is going to mess with it.
Because people don't ever break into cars and steal their content...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,466 Posts
Sorry to break it to you, but if they are not already supporting us, they are already against us. If you care about public opinion then you better start caring about the media and their spin, because they are critical in shaping it. You would be extremely naive to deny that's the case. Sad reality of our political landscape is "educating people with calm, reasoned arguments" approach has NEVER EVER won a political campaign or movement.
I just won't buy that. Remember the mass media hysteria post sandy hook? I know you do. Remember the public opinion polls? Public didn't buy it. But you go scaring a bunch of suburban soccer moms up close and personal.....they may go from not caring to actively voting on the issue. That sound like something to encourage?

Except they are not the one hurting our cause, it's the gun grabbers that are hurting it. Anything we do they will find some way to spin it against us.
Yes, they are hurting our cause. By doing what i described above. It hurts our cause.


And how exactly does the rifle loose those tactical advantages outside of your home?
It doesn't lose those advantages. But the advantages a sidearm gives outweigh them in what is a totally different situation. For me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,731 Posts
I just won't buy that. Remember the mass media hysteria post sandy hook? I know you do. Remember the public opinion polls? Public didn't buy it. But you go scaring a bunch of suburban soccer moms up close and personal.....they may go from not caring to actively voting on the issue. That sound like something to encourage?
What about the polls? You mean the ones that stated over 90% of the public supported more restrictive background check? How did you take that to mean the public "didn't buy it"? It sounds like they not only brought it but asked for more of it. Did you forget the numbers of anti-gun legislation the government managed to push through post sandy hook as the result of that mass media frenzy? We, the gun owners (not the "rational" public) only managed to lessen the blow by being involved and letting our voices be heard.

Yes, they are hurting our cause. By doing what i described above. It hurts our cause.
By your logic, everytime NRA or Lapierre says or do anything, it's hurts our cause.

It doesn't lose those advantages. But the advantages a sidearm gives outweigh them in what is a totally different situation. For me.
How exactly is the situation different from inside your home versus inside of another building? This particular side argument about how long guns are suited for inside one's home but not out is completely ridiculous. So much so that I'm just going to stop responding to it any further.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top