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Discussion Starter #1
I am almost ready to proceed with the cutting of my extra barrel to the SBR length of 10.3 inches (or is it 10.4 inches according to TROSusa?).

I figure I have five options:

1) Buy a CMMG short barrel and pay out the ass to get it ($249.95 + s&h) and hope that I can sell my take off barrel that I purchased awhile ago to recoup some cash.

2) Go with TROSusa and have them cut and crown the barrel ($156.00 shipping included)

3) Find someone locally that has a good lathe (or a local machine shop) and have them do it ($???.??) but the experience in barrel cutting may not be there.

4) Go to my local machine shop, rent a space for a little while, cut and crown the barrel myself, probably screw it up totally, start over, and be way above the $250.00 level. And this opens a whole new ball-game about the how to cut and crown the darn thing. (A thread about the topic how to cut and crown the PS90 barrel would make a good sticky if a machinist would like to take the time and effort to do it - hint hint)

OR

5) Find someone who is willing to cut and crown it for me at a more resonable price.

BTW, you DO NOT need a Form 1 to cut and crown the barrel. You only need the Form 1 IF and WHEN you marry up the barrel to the upper receiver (thus making it a firearm). However to protect myself from the ATF goonies, I keep the barrel and receiver locked in SEPERATE safes, disassembled of course, because the take off barrel was cut at the pin for the flash hider which technically makes this a SBR (if assembled) because the barrel is less than 16 inches (by about half an inch), and yes the ATF will be in your face for this.

I like option five the best. So does anyone have the machinery and know how to help a fellow PS90 owner to do this at a more resonable price than what was posted above?

Any other options or ideas? Sources to cut and crown at a more resonable price? Know-how and willing to share it?

Thanks
 

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i am waiting for my sbr paperwork as well and ive come to the following conclusions:

1. the 325 or so it will cost for the new 10.3 brl and adapter for my AAC can adapterisnt really that dad when you compare it to the 150 or so that you pay to have the barrel cut.

2. while i dont have the technical expertise to declare any facts, i havent yet found a machinist who will disagree with the following statement: "if you cut a chrome lined barrel, the chrome will flake"

while tros may have some kind of leg up technically, a process, or whatever, the fact remains that the original lining doesnt end at the end of the rifling lands and grooves. it continues on outside the barrel for a small fraction of an inch. this means the edge of the chrome is never directly contacted by a 2000 fps projectile.

id further consider the cheaper tros route if someone could convince me that none of this matters, but we are talking about 150 bucks saved on a 1600 end product, what is that? not enuf to worry about imn my mind
 

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Discussion Starter #3
lightfighter said:
while i dont have the technical expertise to declare any facts, i havent yet found a machinist who will disagree with the following statement: "if you cut a chrome lined barrel, the chrome will flake"
I do believe that you can cut the barrel without the chrome flaking. It needs to be cut from the inside out. I think that the way to accomplish this is to cut the barrel down to about 11 inches then recut the barrel using a lathe from the inside at the proper dimension.

This is how I envision it be done. Of course I could be way off but then that is why I posted this question, for informational purposes.

Chances are this could be done on a benchtop lathe but I do not have one.
 

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While I know money can be the major factor for various choices. I would personally make sure to do something like an SRB correctly.

You are will already be spending ~$200 on the stamp, so you might as well save up and do it right. Get something like the new Uppers Thompson Machine Project one.

But that is just me, save up and do it right.

FM
 

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fathermorpheus said:
While I know money can be the major factor for various choices. I would personally make sure to do something like an SRB correctly.

You are will already be spending ~$200 on the stamp, so you might as well save up and do it right. Get something like the new Uppers Thompson Machine Project one.

But that is just me, save up and do it right.

FM
Yes, another good idea!
 

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HK SD9 Tactical said:
BTW, you DO NOT need a Form 1 to cut and crown the barrel. You only need the Form 1 IF and WHEN you marry up the barrel to the upper receiver (thus making it a firearm).
Ever heard of constructive possession? Apparently not. I suppose it's ok to have a pistol in one safe and a stock for it in another without constituting a SBR, huh? NOT! In addition, why are you posting legal advice when you're not a lawyer?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
hkbeltfed said:
HK SD9 Tactical said:
BTW, you DO NOT need a Form 1 to cut and crown the barrel. You only need the Form 1 IF and WHEN you marry up the barrel to the upper receiver (thus making it a firearm).
Ever heard of constructive possession? Apparently not. I suppose it's ok to have a pistol in one safe and a stock for it in another without constituting a SBR, huh? NOT! In addition, why are you posting legal advice when you're not a lawyer?
No I am not a lawyer, if you are please say so - you did not specify that you were. But by all means, if I have stated something that is illegal then please let me know (if you are indeed a lawyer) and I will modify this post to conform with the site rules. But until otherwise notified, I will adhere to the advice given to me by FFL'ed manufacturers about the posession, storage, and accessability of unassembled parts.

Please expound on 'constructive posession' further. You have peaked my interest in this and if you could provide additonal information, I would be most appreaciative.

So are you saying that if you posess a complete PS90 and purchase/posess a take-off barrel that was cut in any form or fashion making the barrel less than the 16 inches required, then by your statement about constructive posession, are you commiting a felony because you have the parts to assemble a SBR without an approved Form 1? Or are you saying that just the posession of a less than 16 inch barrel is sufficient without the approved Form 1? If this is the case then I would presume that everyone who sells take-off PS90 barrels (that have been cut) on various on-line sites (and who posess a PS90 while in posession of the cut barrel) are commiting felonies due to constructive posession and failure to transfer the barrel legally by submitting to the ATF the required forms for transfer, and not paying the $200 tax? Please, lets stick to the discussion of a PS90 and the extra barrel/parts and not add additional items like pistols and stocks or seers and AR15.

Please elaborate.

(This is a search for knowledge and factual information only, with no other given or implied intent whatsoever).
 

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Unless you are a gunsmith forget about trying to drill the pin and take the barrel off.

After my Form-1 cam ein I had something like 4 hours in trying to get that darn thing off....I eventually just used a saw and hacked that right off. I can't expect you are going to get any kind of cash for the barrel either....even if you DO manage to get it off by drilling the pin nicely.
 

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I'm not a lawyer and I don't post legal advice, however, when I see incorrect and illegal advice being given I feel obligated to say something. If someone reads your initial post and they followed your advice, they'd find themselves breaking the law.

I'd suggest you listen to a lawyer that specializes in firearms law like James Bardwell...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

As well as the ATF...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

In short, possession of parts that when combined will produce a NFA regulated firearm without approved paperwork is ILLEGAL! It's called constructive possession. Possession of a P90 barrel and a PS90 receiver, even if they're in separate safes, is illegal because there's nothing prevent you from assembling them into an illegal configuration (SBR). That said, don't take my word for it (again, I'm NOT a lawyer) and call your local ATF office and tell them what you've got in your safes!

Why would you (or someone) give me a -1 Karma?!? Geez.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
ick said:
Unless you are a gunsmith forget about trying to drill the pin and take the barrel off.

After my Form-1 cam ein I had something like 4 hours in trying to get that darn thing off....I eventually just used a saw and hacked that right off. I can't expect you are going to get any kind of cash for the barrel either....even if you DO manage to get it off by drilling the pin nicely.
The barrel that I bought has the flash hider already removed so I do not have to deal with that portion of it. I am not a machinist and do not have the tools to remove the flash hider even though I have read that some people have had success with that portion of it, it is not something that I would attempt to do myself.

Given the amount of SBRs out there, most if not all have been original length barrels that have been cut down, as FNH does not sell a P90 barrel to the public.

That being said, if the barrel is cut at the pin to the flash hider, it will make the barrel less than the 16 inches required by the powers that be, so is it against the law to posses a barrel less than 16 inches in length if it is not assembled and/or you do not have an approved Form 1? And if so, how can these be selling on GunBroker and other auction sites without the proper paperwork? This has been going on for some time now and I am sure that the ATF would have put a stop to this, or the auction sites would have put a stop to this, if it were not legal.

???
 

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Discussion Starter #12
hkbeltfed said:
I'm not a lawyer and I don't post legal advice, however, when I see incorrect and illegal advice being given I feel obligated to say something. If someone reads your initial post and they followed your advice, they'd find themselves breaking the law.

I'd suggest you listen to a lawyer that specializes in firearms law like James Bardwell...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

As well as the ATF...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

In short, possession of parts that when combined will produce a NFA regulated firearm without approved paperwork is ILLEGAL! It's called constructive possession. Possession of a P90 barrel and a PS90 receiver, even if they're in separate safes, is illegal because there's nothing prevent you from assembling them into an illegal configuration (SBR). That said, don't take my word for it (again, I'm NOT a lawyer) and call your local ATF office and tell them what you've got in your safes!

Why would you (or someone) give me a -1 Karma?!? Geez.
I will re-read the information at the links that you have posted and get back with you on this. Thanks for the information.

Twas not I and I am disappointed that someone would do that just because you post what you believe to be correct information. Giving someone bad karma over this defeats the purpose of information exchange and degrades the thread. As I stated, I am looking for clarification and information on the subject matter, nothing more (except a machinist who can provide information on how to cut the barrel).
 

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It was because my original post came off as gruff, but nonetheless, it's obviously a serious matter for all of us. As polite and professional as the ATF has been in my personal experience, none of us wants an unexpected visit over legalities!

Good luck with your project!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Here is what I am basing my opinion on about having a short barrel without the approved Form 1 in hand.

From the: Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide (2005), Title 27 CFR Chapter II, Part 479 – Machine Guns, Destructive Devices, And Certain Other Firearms (This part was formerly designated as Part 179)

Under: Subpart B – Definitions

SS 479.11 Meaning of terms.

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than … inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon …


The key word here is ‘rifle’ so what constitutes a rifle?

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

There is no definition identifying ‘weapon’ in this chapter.

To further elaborate as to what a ‘weapon’ is and assuming that in this case the term weapon means a firearm, I found this definition for ‘firearm’ in The Gun Control Act of 1968 Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 44, Subsection 921

SS 921 Definitions.

(3) The term firearm means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.


The key terms here are ‘the frame or receiver’. A barrel is not a frame or receiver so it is therefore not a firearm. If it is not a firearm, it can not be a rifle. Therefore SS 479.11 does not apply. Lets face it, its just a barrel and nothing more.

Now that this is settled about the barrel being a barrel, under Subsection 479.64 Procedure for approval of application, Title 27 CFR Chapter II, Part 479 – Machine Guns, Destructive Devices, And Certain Other Firearms (This part was formerly designated as Part 179) states:

SS 479.64 Procedure for approval of application.

The application to make a firearm, Form 1 (Firearms), must be forwarded directly, in duplicate, by the maker of the firearm to the Director in accordance with the instruction on the form. The Director will consider the application for approval or disapproval. If the application is approved, the Director will return the original thereof to the maker of the firearm and retain the duplicate. Upon receipt of the approved application, the maker is authorized to make the firearm described therein. The maker of the firearm shall not, under any circumstances, make the firearm until the application, satisfactorily executed, has been forwarded to the Director and has been approved and returned by the Director with the National Firearms Act stamp affixed. If the application is disapproved, the original Form 1 (Firearms) and the remittance submitted by the applicant for the purchase of the stamp will be returned to the applicant with the reason disapproval stated on the form.


Once again, this paragraph specifies a ‘firearm’ and a barrel is NOT a firearm by ATF definition. You MUST HAVE the approved Form 1 to put it all together, but the Form 1 is not necessary to simply posses a cut barrel.

I found no references to ‘constructive possession’. The closest that I could find was ‘readily restored’ which is way too ambiguous to ascertain clearly as the definition of this term is not found anywhere in the referenced material.
 

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What?!? There's hundreds of references to "constructive possession" on ATF's website! Here's a search narrowed down with "constructive possession" and "nationals firearms act"...

CLICK HERE!

Did you read James Bardwell's NFA FAQ? In part it reads...

" A short barreled rifle (SBR) is defined in the law as:
26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(a)
* * * *
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches
in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified
has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; * * *"

And...

"ATF takes the position that this definition includes any
combination of parts from which a short barreled rifle can be
assembled."

While you're trying to formulate your OPINION on the LAWS, please don't forget all of ATF's rulings and decisions at whim. You're playing with fire and going to get burned. Why don't you write the ATF a letter or consult a lawyer instead?

Also, while you CONTINUE to formulate your OPINION, why don't you remove your statements in your 1st post before someone gets themselves in trouble? Or at least, state that those are your OPINIONS.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
hkbeltfed said:
What?!? There's hundreds of references to "constructive possession" on ATF's website! Here's a search narrowed down with "constructive possession" and "nationals firearms act"...

CLICK HERE!

Did you read James Bardwell's NFA FAQ? In part it reads...

" A short barreled rifle (SBR) is defined in the law as:
26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(a)
* * * *
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches
in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified
has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; * * *"

And...

"ATF takes the position that this definition includes any
combination of parts from which a short barreled rifle can be
assembled."

While you're trying to formulate your OPINION on the LAWS, please don't forget all of ATF's rulings and decisions at whim. You're playing with fire and going to get burned. Why don't you write the ATF a letter or consult a lawyer instead?

Also, while you CONTINUE to formulate your OPINION, why don't you remove your statements in your 1st post before someone gets themselves in trouble? Or at least, state that those are your OPINIONS.
There are also hundreds of references to 'readily restore' but none of the documents that you mentioned defines what 'constructive posession' means. If you re-read my post you will see that I stated that there were no references to 'constructive posession' in the materials that I referenced. I think that you are assuming that constructive posession means that because you have the parts, your are guilty of some firearm violation.

Just about any idiot can make some type of thing that goes boom with what is lying about the grocery store and cabinets in their kitchen. That does not mean they have 'constructive posession' of the parts needed to make something go boom.

Just about any home shop worker has all the parts necessary to make a silencer with pipes and washers, but that does not mean that they have 'constructive posession' of the parts necessary to make a silencer.

While I would agree that this 'constructive posession' in relation to sears (as a sear is specifically identified as a firearm by law), I fail to see the link with having a non-firearm part (remember a barrel is not a firearm) having anything to do with 'constructive posession'. The link that you provided to the ATF web site (from what I can ascertain in the short reading that I was able to accomplish) has to do with AUTOMATIC rifles that had sears, were near sears, or were in the posession of people who also had AR15s/M16s/AK47s, and could be converted accordignly. Again, a sear is a firearm unto itself (just like a receiver is) and has been identified by federal regulations as such.

A barrel is not defined as a rifle. If you know otherwise and can show me where in all the federal laws and regulations that states that a barrel IS a rifle, until then I will take the definition of a rifle to mean what is stated in the ATF provided referenced material. No where in the ATF referenced material does it state that a barrel is a weapon, firearm, or whatever.

In both instances above that you mentioned, the term RIFLE was specifically used to identify it as a firearm. A stock is not a rifle. A sight is not a rifle. A trigger is not a rifle. A flash hider is not a rifle. A sear IS a rifle and has been identified as such by federal regulations.

You forgot to mention that James Bardwell also stated "And you can see why a barrel is not subject to regulation, or registration, in itself. It is a barrel, it cannot discharge a shot.

You also did not mention that "In the Supreme court case of U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992) ATF said a set consisting of a receiver, a 16"+ barrel, a pistol grip stock, a shoulder stock, and a barrel ess than 16 inches long was a short barreled rifle.", however, the Supreme Court ruled that "The Court said that a set of parts was not a short barreled rifle, unless the only way (emphasis added) to assemble the parts was into a short barreled rifle. As this set had a legitimate, legal, use for all the parts it was OK".

While my OPINION is based on information provided to me by FFLed manufacturers and by research conducted by me into the referenced ATF material as noted in my previous post, I still do not see how posession of a cut barrel, without an approved Form 1, is a crime. And the Supreme Court already ruled what parts construe a SBR.

Esteves: Will try to read the links asap before I respond further.
 

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In today's day and age even the ACCUSATION of impropriety MAKES YOU GUILTY if:

1. You happen to have the wrong skin color (and I mean any color)
2. Your stand is opposite press perception (example: select wording to intestinally inflame situation AGAINST gun owner)

Don't order the short barrel until you get the proper stamp from the ATF
 
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