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Discussion Starter #1
Being that I can really only afford one gun, which would you choose? Among factors to be considered are that I live in NY, a "no collapsable stock" state, so rifle length is an issue. Another issue is trigger pull. I've played with the FS2000 at the range and have been underwhelmed by it. Do you guys know of a trigger fix to get this thing even close to the trigger on the Sig 556?

Another issue is price. I've been able to find Sig's for $1200, while most FS2000's were 1900+. A SCAR would be nice, but what are we looking at when it does come out?

Last, probably most important issue is durability. Only the Sig 556 can claim it's "been there, done that." And yes, I'm aware it's built on the 55X series, but parts do not interchange. But the gun will run!

So all in all, do I wait for the SCAR, pony up for the FS2000 or "settle now" for the cheaper Sig?
 

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The SCAR won't be out until October. The price is projected to be about the same as the FS 2000 right now. I was told by the FN rep to wait at least a year after the release and the prices should come down some.

After that, the Sig is going to be about the same feel as an AR. The FS2000 is really in a league by itself. The Sig is going to be a tad bit longer with the stock collapsed. So if your trying to get to it quickly, you have to fumble with it. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome rifle, but I'm just not that overwhelmed by it. It's really just a gas piston AR when it comes down to it.

The FS2000 just melts into your arms. There is no adjusting. I did notice a tad bit less recoil than my M4 also. Really though, it's your money. Get what your the most comfortable with. Beit 1200 or 2000, that still a chunk of change to kick out. You'll have to live with your decision.
 

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The SIG 556 is heavy but it makes up for it when you shoot it.
It shoots better than any other AR I've ever shot.

 

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A couple things to consider...

First, strictly from a collector's standpoint, since the FS2K is made entirely in Belgium and imported, it is the most vulnerable in terms of an executive order stopping it's importation. The FS2K is also the most unique from an engineering standpoint. It's by far the most cutting edge in terms of design and function.

The SCAR will no doubt be the de facto military rifle of the future for most people. It sets the standard in terms of what tomorrow's military is likely to want. The modularity and purpose built design will set itself apart from most other conventional small arms. It will appeal to a larger audience than the FS2K will because it's more traditional in design and bullpups in general are more of an acquired taste to most individuals and units.

The 556 as mentioned above IS based on the Swiss 55x series of rifles, which have been thoroughly tested over the years:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

With the notable exception that the 556 takes AR mags rather than the proprietary SIG mags, and lacks the Swiss diopeter sights, it is essentially a 551 carbine internally. As a matter of fact, a number of internal components WILL interchange with the Swiss originals. While many have expressed notable distaste for the factory furniture (myself included) it is essentially a 551 carbine, enhanced for the American market. I'll be the first one to admit the 556 isn't built to the same fit/finish standard as the original Swiss rifles, it is nonetheless functionally equivalent. Keep in mind however, that the original Swiss guns were well over $3K when they were being imported some two decades ago. With that in mind, we get the 551 action and functionality at about 1/3 the cost.

The 556 isn't as modular as the SCAR, but it does offer some key advantages over much of the competition... It dispenses with a multi-lugged bolt and associated cam pin hole common to most piston ARs. The bolt is actually an AK derivative which is considerablly more robust. Also, it has steel to steel contact in the upper receiver rails, unlike AR piston guns and the XCR.

Shipwreck, you bring up an interesting point regarding how front heavy the factory 556 can be. One thing to consider though, with the addition of the 551 handguards, the handling characteristics and balance are MUCH improved.



Properly equipped, the 556 is a fairly nimble carbine, not too far removed from the likes of a typical AR with an accessory rail and/or medium contour barrel.

I think ultimately, the SCAR will be the top dog. The FS2K will more than likely be the AUG of tomorrow. But, I think for the money, the 556 offers a lot in terms of a conventional carbine.
 

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A couple things to consider...

First, strictly from a collector's standpoint, since the FS2K is made entirely in Belgium and imported, it is the most vulnerable in terms of an executive order stopping it's importation.
If it was made entirely in Belgium, it wouldn't meet federal regulations for import. I think the first versions of the military F2000s were made in Belgium. Since FNH makes over 70% of the weapons for the US military, everything they sell here is made here. That keeps the feds of their backs.

The FS2000, if I'm not mistaken, is made in Fredricksburg, VA. Their last imports were the FNH marked High Powers.
 

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NOPE... Both my boxes say "Made in Belgium".

The fact is, feature for feature the FS2K doesn't have the required number of evil features to classify it an "assault rifle". Further, it's not been specifically mentioned in any previous import bans.

However... One day... All that could change. Hence it's vulnerability and proportional collectability.
 

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FS2000 VS Sig 556

I happen to own both rifles and its just not fair to compare them as they are two seperate platforms.

I use Sig 556 for long range shooting and its great. You can shoot 10,000 rounds thorugh it without cleaning the gas chamber. I know i fired close to 5000 rounds before i took apart the gas cylinder and it barely had any residue. Sig 556 is a great cross between AK and AR-15 type rifles.

FS2000 on the other hand is great to shoot for short ranges of say 50 to 200 yards. It takes a little getting use to but once you get a hang of it you will love the FS2000.

So save your money and get em both.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'd love to get both, but with the $3300 mortgage/tax payments I just got into, I'm only able to afford what selling my collection will provide! I'd prefer ONE of these, then a SCAR in the future, if finances provide, but definitely can't do both. I'm also a bit concerned (more so with the FS2000) about long term prospects of finding replacement parts. Not so much so with my AR15's/10's.

I definitely appreciate your comments, it was especially enlightening to hear about the Sig's accuracy (or FS2000's lack thereof).

So now my question is, what kind of accuracy do you guys typically get from the FS2000? Please include the optics setup you have on the rifle and ammunition used. It's tough for me to compare an Aimpoint to a Leupold/USO/Nightforce precision setup or an ACOG. I'm more interested in the precision setups though, since that's what I'll be doing.
 

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My FS2K will consistantly hit a 5 gal bucket at 300 yrds with regular GI M855 ball ammo - with the factory iron sights. Not bad when you consider it has a shorter sight-radius than an AK. Is it AR-15/A2 accurate - no. Is it better suited a CQB gun - yes. Is it accurate enough for typical .223 "assault" rifle purposes/needs - definately.

My next thought is to put a Hensoldt/G3 X4 power scope on it w/the ARMS STANAG base adapter... Then I will start to push the distance envelope. It'll sit very low and the eye-relief should be about perfect.

.02
 

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Balzac72 said:
I definitely appreciate your comments, it was especially enlightening to hear about the Sig's accuracy (or FS2000's lack thereof).
The FS2000 is entirely capable of good accuracy if you do your part. I can take a knee and hit an 18" steel plate at 500-550 yards with it. I did it with the BUIS and with one that had an EOTech 553 mounted on it. The EOTech and FS2000 are designed with CQB in mind, but my point remains that you can get good accuracy over distance out of the FS2000.

I think the reason for the perception of the SIG getting better accuracy is you can stick a Bi-pod on a a SIG 556 or benchrest it more easily than the FS2000. When I have tried to do a quick benchrest with the FS2000, the mag gets in the way of the table. I'm sure if I put some effort into it, I could get it properly set up with sandbags, but the firearm is not designed for that type of shooting so I do not see the point in trying.

I have shot both platforms. I firmly believe that a firearm has to sell itself. Out of the box, the SIG 556 has a great trigger pull. The FS2000's trigger pull is serviceable and makes sense on a military style rifle but it is not light and crisp. The FS2000 has much better balance than the SIG 556 out of the box. The SIG 556 is front heavy. I know people claim that swapping the original stock handguards for the 551 handguards alleviates the balance problem by cutting half a pound of weight from the SIG's front end. That may be, but I don't know. Also it's roughly an extra $100 to get black 551 handguards and I have read some people still claim that the 551 handguards have some play when put on a 556. The FS2000 is clearly more ambi friendly than the SIG 556. Lastly, I think the controls on a FS2000 have a better layout than the SIG which apes the AR-15 layout.

Balzac72 said:
So now my question is, what kind of accuracy do you guys typically get from the FS2000? Please include the optics setup you have on the rifle and ammunition used. It's tough for me to compare an Aimpoint to a Leupold/USO/Nightforce precision setup or an ACOG. I'm more interested in the precision setups though, since that's what I'll be doing.
Optics are task specific. Comparing red dots / holographic optics to high end scopes is completely useless as their purposes are entirely different. There is no such thing as best optic for all uses. You have to figure out what you want the optic to do. From your post, it sounds like you want precision at distance. That means excluding everything but higher end glass.
 

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If you are DEFINITELY getting the SCAR in the future, it does everything the 556 does BETTER. If you decide on a current 556 like gun, get the XCR before the 556.

Get the FS2000 and the SCAR. BTW, the FS2000 is every bit as accurate as the 556.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
BreakerDave:

Balzac72: So now my question is, what kind of accuracy do you guys typically get from the FS2000? Please include the optics setup you have on the rifle and ammunition used. It's tough for me to compare an Aimpoint to a Leupold/USO/Nightforce precision setup or an ACOG. I'm more interested in the precision setups though, since that's what I'll be doing.
Optics are task specific. Comparing red dots / holographic optics to high end scopes is completely useless as their purposes are entirely different. There is no such thing as best optic for all uses. You have to figure out what you want the optic to do. From your post, it sounds like you want precision at distance. That means excluding everything but higher end glass.

I'm not asking about optics, I'm asking about accuracy specific to the optics you're using. I'm looking for the accuracy potential inherent in the gun, not from a CQB "minute of man" accuracy report.

I already know the optics I'll be using (IOR CQB and Leupold 3.5-10 mkIV).

So does anyone have the sort of accuracy info I'm looking for? It's good to know that the gun can hit gongs, but I'm really looking for 100 yard groups.

I'm thinking at this point that I'm probably going to get the cheap Sig and move up to the scar when it arrives, or sell my Colt Elite 24" AR15 and a pistol or two.

I only know I need to get some new toys to play with! :p
 

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If you decide on a current 556 like gun, get the XCR before the 556.
I wouldn't... From my observation, the XCR looks good on paper, but there's too much to go wrong. Far too many bolts and screws that tend to shoot loose for my taste. Take a look over at the XCR forum, there's always a good amount of discussion going on about how to keep the ejector bolts torqued as well as various other items that tend to loosen up under recoil. Add to that the "300rnd break-in" and my confidence fades pretty quickly. To top it off, Pat Rodgers commented on how he'd seen several of them choke in his carbine courses. When a piston gun can't keep up with an AR, you know there's some issues to be dealt with. Finally, I'm not all that enamored by the fact that the barrel is held in place by 1 solitary hex bolt. (which chews up your knuckle if you are using a mag-well hold) Take a look at how the SCAR barrel is torqued into place, with multiple bolts and you'll see how a top-flight manufacturer handles an interchangeable barrel. The Masada/ACR looks good, but we'll have to see how it shakes out.

I really wanted to like the XCR, but there's too many potential gotchas for my taste. Like I said, it looks great on paper, but I've got my doubts about its long-term durability and the availability of spares should Robinson decide to "96" it.

The 556 has its share of warts too. Mainly due to the manufacturer's inane ideas and marketing. As a matter of fact, I think that speaks pretty highly of the 55x design. Even when assembled by a team of monkeys, it's a pretty good rifle for the money. (around $1200 or less) No the 556 isn't built like a Swiss 55x rifle, but it also doesn't cost $3000 either.

BTW, the FS2000 is every bit as accurate as the 556.
Not according to the reviews I read... American Rifleman did a review on both. 100yd groups with the 556 were close to the 1" mark and around twice that with the FS2K. To top it off, the trigger on the 556 will no doubt allow most shooters to get better practical accuracy. I find the trigger control is far easier with the 556. But then again, they are two different animals and the FS2K has its share of virtues also.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Germanic, I agree with you about the XCR. I've shot it, played with it and am not a fan. I've also seen some of the QC issues it's having. I'm wondering if I should just wait until something cooler and better pops up, like the Masada/ACR or SCAR. Then again, they may be priced out of my range anyway!

Ahhhh decisions!
 

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Germanic said:
If you decide on a current 556 like gun, get the XCR before the 556.
I wouldn't... From my observation, the XCR looks good on paper, but there's too much to go wrong. Far too many bolts and screws that tend to shoot loose for my taste. Take a look over at the XCR forum, there's always a good amount of discussion going on about how to keep the ejector bolts torqued as well as various other items that tend to loosen up under recoil. Add to that the "300rnd break-in" and my confidence fades pretty quickly. To top it off, Pat Rodgers commented on how he'd seen several of them choke in his carbine courses. When a piston gun can't keep up with an AR, you know there's some issues to be dealt with. Finally, I'm not all that enamored by the fact that the barrel is held in place by 1 solitary hex bolt. (which chews up your knuckle if you are using a mag-well hold) Take a look at how the SCAR barrel is torqued into place, with multiple bolts and you'll see how a top-flight manufacturer handles an interchangeable barrel. The Masada/ACR looks good, but we'll have to see how it shakes out.

I really wanted to like the XCR, but there's too many potential gotchas for my taste. Like I said, it looks great on paper, but I've got my doubts about its long-term durability and the availability of spares should Robinson decide to "96" it.

The 556 has its share of warts too. Mainly due to the manufacturer's inane ideas and marketing. As a matter of fact, I think that speaks pretty highly of the 55x design. Even when assembled by a team of monkeys, it's a pretty good rifle for the money. (around $1200 or less) No the 556 isn't built like a Swiss 55x rifle, but it also doesn't cost $3000 either.


BTW, the FS2000 is every bit as accurate as the 556.
Not according to the reviews I read... American Rifleman did a review on both. 100yd groups with the 556 were close to the 1" mark and around twice that with the FS2K. To top it off, the trigger on the 556 will no doubt allow most shooters to get better practical accuracy. I find the trigger control is far easier with the 556. But then again, they are two different animals and the FS2K has its share of virtues also.
It sounds like someone hasn't owned both the XCR and the 556 . I have over 10,000 rounds through my XCR, ZERO problems, and zero of these bolts that come loose (though I have had to tighten a couple screws here and there on my AR's, and I guess with the cleaning intervals done the XCR, one as late as 3500 rounds, everything was tightened up anyway (though not loose to begin with). Yes, I'm on XCR forum. There are maybe 1 or 2 posts about the bolts coming loose. I love how people hype up one persons problem and keep repeating it.

My brother now owns the 556. He doesn't shoot it, but he's happy with it. That's all that counts, but I certainly didn't want that thing.

As to the XCR losing customer support and parts, that is a valid concern that I also have. However, it's selling pretty damn good and I foresee a long, successful future for RA.




Now on to accuracy. I see, so you haven't owned both to compare them. I own the standard with the 1.6 optic, and it groups as well as the AR's, the 556, and the XCR at 100 yards with the 4x32 ACOG. I don't have a range to test past that. They are all in the 1.5" area, and I didn't use a caliper to get exact measurements. Sure, the 556 could have been 1-2/10 of an inch tighter grouper I guess. If that's more accurate and makes you purchase one rifle over another, it's the buyers call. Whatever makes you sleep!

The trigger certainly gets better with use (same with the XCR, although I did get a trigger job done on that anyway, the 556 has a REALLY nice trigger though), and it's something to get used to.

I hope this doesn't sound too forward, as it's not intended to be that way. I just have experience with all of them and find strong disagreements. Don't get me wrong, ALL guns do have their problems (the xcr included, sure, bolts have come loose on 1 or 2 guns out of thousands).


Balzac, what are these "quality control" issues that you speak of? :evil: And sorry for the sort of off topic post. I revert back to my earlier post though...FS2000 and Scar.
 

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Now on to accuracy. I see, so you haven't owned both to compare them.
Actually, if you look at my post above I was commenting on accuracy as compared between the FS2K and 556. And YES, I have examples of both. NO DOUBT the trigger on the 556 will contribute to better PRACTICAL accuracy for most people.

ALL guns do have their problems (the xcr included, sure, bolts have come loose on 1 or 2 guns out of thousands).
Do you seriously believe it only happened to 1 or 2 guns?

I think that number is a little understated.

At any rate, we'll have to agree to disagree on the XCR vs 556 debate. I've wanted to like the XCR, but the examples I've handled have reassured my choice in the 556.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Balzac, what are these "quality control" issues that you speak of? :evil: And sorry for the sort of off topic post. I revert back to my earlier post though...FS2000 and Scar.
The ONE rifle that I was able to finger had an improperly drilled selector position, that functioned, but was not true. Additionally, something was loose on it, but I don't recall. I don't think it was the bolt though, it was something external to the rifle, but not an accessory. Vague, yes, but it's all I recall. The XCR is interesting, but in my opinion, it'll go the way of the Bushmaster bullpup.

Thanks for your frank views of the accuracy. I know that with open sights, I was hitting spackle can lids at 100 yards with ease. Short sight radius or not, it wasn't even a tad difficult. Then again, I've only ever had problems doing that with an AK variant.

I appreciate all of your comments guys, I'm pondering selling some of my Federal gold medal match 69gr stuff to buy an FS2000 now. Something's gotta give in order for me to afford it.
 

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I agree. The FS2K is an excellent choice. I love the ergos and the cutting edge engineering in the design.

Enjoy it & post some photos when you get it! :?
 
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