I bought a FN Ps90 a few weeks ago. I live in West Virginia. I have shot about 300 rounds through the gun and it has functioned perfectly. But I have a problem with the gun. I can get all of the rounds on a man sized target at 100 yds but I can not get any of them close enough to each other to call anything a group that I could zero it in with.This is the most inaccurate gun that I have ever shot. Are all of the Ps90s like this or did I just get a bad gun? Any help or advice from anyone who is familar with the Ps90 and how accurate it should be, will be greatly appricated. My preffered email address is [email protected] I look forward to hearing from any one that can help me. Johnray
Ps90 Accuracy
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Tree, I do mean to sound arrogant,but it never has been for me and I have been shooting for 55 years now. I have seen guns just plain shoot poorly or that shoot any where from 3" groups up to 12" groups and when I get one like that I get rid of it.I was shooting off of a sand bag rest. If you are having trouble getting guns to shoot a group at 100 yds,you need to get rid of them and start looking for guns that are meant to shoot,not set in a gun safe. I have gotten most of my guns from people who were very unhappy with their new gun because it did shoot a good group or that they could not hit anything with it. They generally offer to sell the gun very cheap and I always buy these guns and I then go shoot them. I have gotten a few bad guns,but most of the time these guns shoot very well for me. Deer season is in here now and it will end next week and I will start hearing from some people that they missed a deer because of their gun and they are mad and they want to get rid of it.I buy some these guns if they have a good scope on it or if it is in a caliber that I want. When I go to shoot these guns,95% of them will be excellent. If they are not, I will at least have a good scope. After I shoot these guns, I will talk to the person that I got it from and I generally find out they have shot less than a box shells through them.That less than a box of shells generally includes the ones that they shot zeroing it in and the ones they missed one or more deer with.I can not explain this except to tell you that most of the guns that I shot,shoot very well. This Ps90 shoots so bad that the only way that it could of any value is to be shooting it at very close target and I do not need a gun like that. I bought a gun that has been marketed to shoot a trajectory out to two hundre yards and all of the reviewers always commented on how incridibily accurate that they were. What I got and what every body else got was a really good marketing campain by FN so that they could sell alot of expensive guns very quickly. FN will never get any more of my money. Johnray
Tree, I do mean to sound arrogant,but it never has been for me and I have been shooting for 55 years now. I have seen guns just plain shoot poorly or that shoot any where from 3" groups up to 12" groups and when I get one like that I get rid of it.I was shooting off of a sand bag rest. If you are having trouble getting guns to shoot a group at 100 yds,you need to get rid of them and start looking for guns that are meant to shoot,not set in a gun safe. I have gotten most of my guns from people who were very unhappy with their new gun because it did shoot a good group or that they could not hit anything with it. They generally offer to sell the gun very cheap and I always buy these guns and I then go shoot them. I have gotten a few bad guns,but most of the time these guns shoot very well for me. Deer season is in here now and it will end next week and I will start hearing from some people that they missed a deer because of their gun and they are mad and they want to get rid of it.I buy some these guns if they have a good scope on it or if it is in a caliber that I want. When I go to shoot these guns,95% of them will be excellent. If they are not, I will at least have a good scope. After I shoot these guns, I will talk to the person that I got it from and I generally find out they have shot less than a box shells through them.That less than a box of shells generally includes the ones that they shot zeroing it in and the ones they missed one or more deer with.I can not explain this except to tell you that most of the guns that I shot,shoot very well. This Ps90 shoots so bad that the only way that it could of any value is to be shooting it at very close target and I do not need a gun like that. I bought a gun that has been marketed to shoot a trajectory out to two hundre yards and all of the reviewers always commented on how incridibily accurate that they were. What I got and what every body else got was a really good marketing campain by FN so that they could sell alot of expensive guns very quickly. FN will never get any more of my money. Johnray
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I have gotten 1.5 inch groups of five at 100 meters. That was with an after-market scope and some trigger work.
With the factory optics and trigger I remeber getting 50 rounds in a 12 inch group.
With the factory optics and trigger I remeber getting 50 rounds in a 12 inch group.
My point is this. You can take any gun that is capable of shooting sub MOA at 100 yards and put a unmagnified or dot scope on it and it is going to very difficult, no matter how many years you have been shooting, to get a sub MOA at 100. You need magnification to get that kind of accuracy.
Anyone who has been shooting for that long should know that.
Anyone who has been shooting for that long should know that.
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I haven't been back out to the 50/100 yard outdoor range since I sighted my EOTECH. I have only shot my new PS90 two times. The last time was a week ago at an indoor range.
But, I got a 1/2 inch group of 3 rounds at 50 yards using my Eotech. It was the only target I was able to keep, so its all I can say for now. This was on a sandbag rest (on the bottom of the gun, NOT usinb the barrel as a rest)
But, I got a 1/2 inch group of 3 rounds at 50 yards using my Eotech. It was the only target I was able to keep, so its all I can say for now. This was on a sandbag rest (on the bottom of the gun, NOT usinb the barrel as a rest)
PS90/ P90 Accuracy
Hey Tree, I hope you relize that we're still talking about a tool that was designed to be a sub-machine gun and in a lot of instances a replacement of a pistol. The PS/P90 system was never designed to be sniper rifle, optics or not. I've fired plenty of MP5's on burst and full auto that shot fine groups at 25 and 50 yards. I have even taken down steel plates at 100 with them. But they are not a sniper rifle and should not be considered as a sub-MOA weapon. I a shooter that is getting better than average groups, 2 inches or so, at 100 yrads is doing pretty well with that weapon.
And by the way, I've shot plenty of MOA groups with iron sights. Toys don't make the warrior. Training, experience, commom sense, and heart do.
Hey Tree, I hope you relize that we're still talking about a tool that was designed to be a sub-machine gun and in a lot of instances a replacement of a pistol. The PS/P90 system was never designed to be sniper rifle, optics or not. I've fired plenty of MP5's on burst and full auto that shot fine groups at 25 and 50 yards. I have even taken down steel plates at 100 with them. But they are not a sniper rifle and should not be considered as a sub-MOA weapon. I a shooter that is getting better than average groups, 2 inches or so, at 100 yrads is doing pretty well with that weapon.
And by the way, I've shot plenty of MOA groups with iron sights. Toys don't make the warrior. Training, experience, commom sense, and heart do.
Well, I am still waiting for my PS90 (not available here atm), but I shoot many other guns, when I have time to do so (at least twice a month).
I usually shoot in the indoor range at 25 or 50 Meters, which is quite easy to get good results with almost any gun.
When I shoot at the outdoor range, i usually shoot my SIG 550 (Standard military issued here) with Ironsights at 300 Meters, and I usually group within 10cm (about 4 inches). I also have other rifles I shoot at these distances, and some only have Ironsoghts. Surely, I can't shoot my M82 with Ironsights only, but that is another type of weapon.
As far as it goes for me, any gun I have, should reach some point of accuracy.
- Pistols and Revolvers: at least 4 Inch groupings at 50 Meters
- Submachine Guns: 4 to 6 Inch groupings at 100 Meters
- Assault Rifles: 2 to 4 Inch groupings at 150 - 200 Meters
- Swiss Army Issue Rifles: 4 Inch groupings at 300 Meters
- Sniper and Precision Rifles: 1 to 2 Inch groups at 300 Meters, decent groups at 600 Meters and more.
- .50 BMG: 4 to 10 Inch groups at 1200 Meters.
That's what I expect from my weapons, and therefor, I usually select them carefully.
Any kind of aiming aid on a Pistol, Submachine Gun, or Assault Rifle, is only to help you to get faster on your target, but never to get better results with your groupings. It's just an aid, but you still habe to aim yourself.
regards
Reaper
I usually shoot in the indoor range at 25 or 50 Meters, which is quite easy to get good results with almost any gun.
When I shoot at the outdoor range, i usually shoot my SIG 550 (Standard military issued here) with Ironsights at 300 Meters, and I usually group within 10cm (about 4 inches). I also have other rifles I shoot at these distances, and some only have Ironsoghts. Surely, I can't shoot my M82 with Ironsights only, but that is another type of weapon.
As far as it goes for me, any gun I have, should reach some point of accuracy.
- Pistols and Revolvers: at least 4 Inch groupings at 50 Meters
- Submachine Guns: 4 to 6 Inch groupings at 100 Meters
- Assault Rifles: 2 to 4 Inch groupings at 150 - 200 Meters
- Swiss Army Issue Rifles: 4 Inch groupings at 300 Meters
- Sniper and Precision Rifles: 1 to 2 Inch groups at 300 Meters, decent groups at 600 Meters and more.
- .50 BMG: 4 to 10 Inch groups at 1200 Meters.
That's what I expect from my weapons, and therefor, I usually select them carefully.
Any kind of aiming aid on a Pistol, Submachine Gun, or Assault Rifle, is only to help you to get faster on your target, but never to get better results with your groupings. It's just an aid, but you still habe to aim yourself.
regards
Reaper
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181 Posts
My first time out with my PS90 was in a coworker's back yard in the county. The targets were in the shade down low with some tall grass in front. I was using the stock sight with a makeshift illuminator consisting of a red Photon Microlight. At 43 yards, from a rest, shooting about 100 rounds of SS195LF my 5 shot groups were about 5 inches with a best of 3 inches. I wasn't too worried about accuracy since it was my first time, but I did hope for better. I really learned to dislike the standard Ring Sight that day.
Last weekend I went to a real outdoor range. I had a 2x20 Compact ACOG with the red crosshair mounted on the PS90. Shooting 200+ rounds of SS195LF from a rest my average 50 yard, 5 shot group measured from center to center with no called fliers was 2 inches. The best group was 5/8 of an inch.
Considering what the rifle was designed for this is acceptable to me.
I think I can do better with practice. I haven't done much rifle shooting. I think a lighter trigger would help too.
Last weekend I went to a real outdoor range. I had a 2x20 Compact ACOG with the red crosshair mounted on the PS90. Shooting 200+ rounds of SS195LF from a rest my average 50 yard, 5 shot group measured from center to center with no called fliers was 2 inches. The best group was 5/8 of an inch.
Considering what the rifle was designed for this is acceptable to me.
I think I can do better with practice. I haven't done much rifle shooting. I think a lighter trigger would help too.
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So far I have only put 160 rounds thru the gun. The last 60 was at an indoor range because I wanted to sight the laser in at a home defense distance.
So, the first 100 was put thru it at the 50 yard range. 50 of that was sighting in the eotech.
I had planned to go shoot 100 more thru the gun this past weekend at the outdoor range, but the weather didn't cooperate. I found it very boring to shoot a rifle at a 15 yard indoor range.
Anyway, yes, it was a 3 shot group. Two of them actually. As I was trying to fine tune the eotech and figure out if it was me pulling the gun or the eotech that needed final adjustment, I got two 3" groups.
I had the gun resting on 2 sandbags on the fron, and 1 sandbag for the rear of the stock. I adjusted the front ones until it got the gun where I wanted.
I was using the 197 ammo - all I can buy locally, and the only ammo I have tried so far.
I do not have any strap or anything else attached to the barrel.
The gun is really kewl. When sighting in the laser, I had a sandbag on each end. I stood above the carbine and just put my finger on the trigger to fire it. I wanted to have as little movement to the gun as possible. I fired it a few times this way as I made adjustments in between shots to the laser. The recoil is so mild that the gun never moved on the sandbags.
So, the first 100 was put thru it at the 50 yard range. 50 of that was sighting in the eotech.
I had planned to go shoot 100 more thru the gun this past weekend at the outdoor range, but the weather didn't cooperate. I found it very boring to shoot a rifle at a 15 yard indoor range.
Anyway, yes, it was a 3 shot group. Two of them actually. As I was trying to fine tune the eotech and figure out if it was me pulling the gun or the eotech that needed final adjustment, I got two 3" groups.
I had the gun resting on 2 sandbags on the fron, and 1 sandbag for the rear of the stock. I adjusted the front ones until it got the gun where I wanted.
I was using the 197 ammo - all I can buy locally, and the only ammo I have tried so far.
I do not have any strap or anything else attached to the barrel.
The gun is really kewl. When sighting in the laser, I had a sandbag on each end. I stood above the carbine and just put my finger on the trigger to fire it. I wanted to have as little movement to the gun as possible. I fired it a few times this way as I made adjustments in between shots to the laser. The recoil is so mild that the gun never moved on the sandbags.
I have found most weapons shoot very tight groups for the first 3 shots. My Vepr will shoot 1"-1.5" 3-shot groups at 50 yd using Barnaul JHP (7.62x39).
I found the PS90 does the same thing, but the groups start to open up when you go for a 10-15 shot group to measure the consistency of the precision. I have found the stock trigger pull to slow down my familiarization with the weapon, and the stock reflex sight to be equally as bad.
I found the PS90 does the same thing, but the groups start to open up when you go for a 10-15 shot group to measure the consistency of the precision. I have found the stock trigger pull to slow down my familiarization with the weapon, and the stock reflex sight to be equally as bad.
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Well, I didn't get a chance to get or check all my targets once more people showed up on the range.
Most pistols are checked for accuracy in 3 or 5 shot groups. 10-15 shot groups start depending on the shooter, not necessarily the gun. U start moving the gun when you U pull the trigger and what not. Unless its straped into a vise or rest, U get variation that may not be the gun's fault. Granted - that is more of a real world showing because it shows how U use the gun over many shots.
Anyway - my only point was to show the people who complain about huge groups that the gun is fairly capable. The heavier trigger can get groups to open up a bit. But w/ a better sight than the stock one, U can shoot very accurately. I am more than satisfied.
Most pistols are checked for accuracy in 3 or 5 shot groups. 10-15 shot groups start depending on the shooter, not necessarily the gun. U start moving the gun when you U pull the trigger and what not. Unless its straped into a vise or rest, U get variation that may not be the gun's fault. Granted - that is more of a real world showing because it shows how U use the gun over many shots.
Anyway - my only point was to show the people who complain about huge groups that the gun is fairly capable. The heavier trigger can get groups to open up a bit. But w/ a better sight than the stock one, U can shoot very accurately. I am more than satisfied.
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181 Posts
Ship, if you feel like it, sometime when you go to the range try several 5-10 shot groups at 50 yards and average them all.
My 2 inch 50 yard 5 shot average was determined from about forty 5 shot groupings, so I had a lot of data. This included sighting in the ACOG. I didn't throw out the first few groups because they didn't tighten up that much as I continued to shoot.
I shot 5 shot groups because I kept seeing the title of this one thread on AR-15.com that read "The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups". I finally read some of that thread today. Here is a link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218
It makes sense to me that the more shots in your group the more accurate your data will be.
Hopefully I can get to the range this weekend. I want to get a couple of notched sandbags to rest the rifle better. I put some powdered graphite on the trigger bar and trigger group too.
Right now the rifle is shooting minute of 1/2 pound Tannerite bottle, so that is alright for me
My 2 inch 50 yard 5 shot average was determined from about forty 5 shot groupings, so I had a lot of data. This included sighting in the ACOG. I didn't throw out the first few groups because they didn't tighten up that much as I continued to shoot.
I shot 5 shot groups because I kept seeing the title of this one thread on AR-15.com that read "The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups". I finally read some of that thread today. Here is a link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218
It makes sense to me that the more shots in your group the more accurate your data will be.
Hopefully I can get to the range this weekend. I want to get a couple of notched sandbags to rest the rifle better. I put some powdered graphite on the trigger bar and trigger group too.
Right now the rifle is shooting minute of 1/2 pound Tannerite bottle, so that is alright for me
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181 Posts
Took another trip to the range today. The temp was about 60 degrees and there was about a 10mph crosswind.
In an effort to tighten up the groups I got a set of notched sandbags from WalMart and I lubed up the transfer bar and hammer group with some Balkamp dry powdered graphite lubricant I got from Napa auto parts. During the first real range session I only had one sandbag up front. That was a sandbag the range had provided that was just a small bag filled with sand. With the two notched bags things were much steadier. The graphite did make the trigger smoother, but it is still a loooong trigger pull. The pull didn't seem quite as heavy as before.
Note: Cover your sight before applying the dry graphite lube and be careful. This stuff can go everywhere. It is just about as bad as cat hair
I also made the targets easier to see. The targets provided by the range consist of a series of ten small human silhouettes with a hard to see center. I gave myself a good center by adding 3/4 inch red stick on dots.
The average of twentyseven 50 yard 5 shot groups with no called fliers was 1 3/4 inches. Apparently I shoot like I bowl because the first 10 groups averaged 1 1/2 inches.
I still think I can do better. I think I need to be more consistant with my cheek weld and sight picture. I'm not a marksman by any means. Until getting the PS90 I probably hadn't touched a rifle in a couple of decades. I mostly shoot handguns and don't do enough of that.
I'm satisfied with the accuracy so far. Considering what it was originally designed for I think mine is shooting well.
I think the best thing you can do to accurize the PS90 is to first replace the standard Ring Sight. Lightening the trigger pull would probably help, but I don't want to mess with the trigger yet other than applying the graphite lube.
For someone considering a PS90 I would recommend getting one of the new tri-rail versions and an Eotech or red dot sight. The Eotech would give the advantage of the 1 MOA dot for precision shooting and the ability to aim to the bottom of the circle of the reticle for close range shooting. That would compensate for shooting low at close range due to the distance from reticle to the centerline of the barrel. I like my 2x20 ACOG, but it may be overkill for the PS90 and is very expensive at $800. I do like the magnification though.
In an effort to tighten up the groups I got a set of notched sandbags from WalMart and I lubed up the transfer bar and hammer group with some Balkamp dry powdered graphite lubricant I got from Napa auto parts. During the first real range session I only had one sandbag up front. That was a sandbag the range had provided that was just a small bag filled with sand. With the two notched bags things were much steadier. The graphite did make the trigger smoother, but it is still a loooong trigger pull. The pull didn't seem quite as heavy as before.
Note: Cover your sight before applying the dry graphite lube and be careful. This stuff can go everywhere. It is just about as bad as cat hair
I also made the targets easier to see. The targets provided by the range consist of a series of ten small human silhouettes with a hard to see center. I gave myself a good center by adding 3/4 inch red stick on dots.
The average of twentyseven 50 yard 5 shot groups with no called fliers was 1 3/4 inches. Apparently I shoot like I bowl because the first 10 groups averaged 1 1/2 inches.
I still think I can do better. I think I need to be more consistant with my cheek weld and sight picture. I'm not a marksman by any means. Until getting the PS90 I probably hadn't touched a rifle in a couple of decades. I mostly shoot handguns and don't do enough of that.
I'm satisfied with the accuracy so far. Considering what it was originally designed for I think mine is shooting well.
I think the best thing you can do to accurize the PS90 is to first replace the standard Ring Sight. Lightening the trigger pull would probably help, but I don't want to mess with the trigger yet other than applying the graphite lube.
For someone considering a PS90 I would recommend getting one of the new tri-rail versions and an Eotech or red dot sight. The Eotech would give the advantage of the 1 MOA dot for precision shooting and the ability to aim to the bottom of the circle of the reticle for close range shooting. That would compensate for shooting low at close range due to the distance from reticle to the centerline of the barrel. I like my 2x20 ACOG, but it may be overkill for the PS90 and is very expensive at $800. I do like the magnification though.
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I've only group-tested my PS90's once and that was with the original ringsight at 50yds using SS197 while sighting in. The Shoot-N-See bullseye I was using exactly fit the outer ring of the ringsight's reticle making precision shots easy. I was getting multiple 3-shot groups of .5"-.75". Since this is a CQB carbine this level of accuracy is more than sufficient for my needs. I now have TriPowers on my PS90's and while the inverted chevron reticle is better suited for CQB snapshots than precision aiming I can still consistently hit the 200m & 300m gongs using SS197.
Tomac
Tomac
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181 Posts
Thanks Tomac. Try shooting more groups and report the results.
I haven't shot SS197 yet. I wonder if it is more accurate than SS195LF.
I want to try some different targets next time. The crosshair on my ACOG was exactly the same thickness as the 3/4 inch dots I was shooting at 50 yards. That may account for some of the vertical stringing I was getting. Since the dots were on silhouettes I didn't have a concentric circle to center on.
The reason I'm shooting so many groups is to teach me how to shoot and try to get some consistancy. I think my groups are ok, but most of them are not centered on the dot. I want to figure out why I'm putting the groups in different places.
I want to shoot some more 50 yard 10 shot groups too. I did two 10 shot groups and one 13 shot group this last time out. One of the the 10 shot groups was 1 3/4 inches and the other two groups were 2 1/4 inches.
Ship, how about a sticky accuracy thread? I think we have 3 different accuracy threads going on now.
I haven't shot SS197 yet. I wonder if it is more accurate than SS195LF.
I want to try some different targets next time. The crosshair on my ACOG was exactly the same thickness as the 3/4 inch dots I was shooting at 50 yards. That may account for some of the vertical stringing I was getting. Since the dots were on silhouettes I didn't have a concentric circle to center on.
The reason I'm shooting so many groups is to teach me how to shoot and try to get some consistancy. I think my groups are ok, but most of them are not centered on the dot. I want to figure out why I'm putting the groups in different places.
I want to shoot some more 50 yard 10 shot groups too. I did two 10 shot groups and one 13 shot group this last time out. One of the the 10 shot groups was 1 3/4 inches and the other two groups were 2 1/4 inches.
Ship, how about a sticky accuracy thread? I think we have 3 different accuracy threads going on now.
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