ps90 // p90 differences
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I recall that the moving parts group is the same (the PS90 even has the rate of fire stabilizer aka anti-bounce weight), but the trigger/safety and hammer group are different and P90 parts cannot be used in the PS90. It is also illegal to make your PS90 fire full-auto.
There are differences in the frame, receiver, and obviously the barrel between the PS90 and P90. A trained eye can tell the difference between a SBR'd black PS90 and a P90.
There are differences in the frame, receiver, and obviously the barrel between the PS90 and P90. A trained eye can tell the difference between a SBR'd black PS90 and a P90.
well the link of Thermallator (thank you very much!!!) solve the problem of the barrel...
Did you know if the hammer group and the trigger group are interchangeable from a p90..?
I dont have any clue but I guess that with some minor modifications we coud archieve the full auto ( always theorically :wink: )
Also I am a litle bit surprised in all the customization of those early Ps90 from all the people, and this the first post that talks about full auto...
Did you know if the hammer group and the trigger group are interchangeable from a p90..?
I dont have any clue but I guess that with some minor modifications we coud archieve the full auto ( always theorically :wink: )
Also I am a litle bit surprised in all the customization of those early Ps90 from all the people, and this the first post that talks about full auto...
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Welcome to the forum
Welcome to the forum.
Any difference discussion between the P90/PS90 is welcome. However, postulating, divulging or attempting to ascertain the functional requirements to convert PS90 to fire full auto are strictly verbotten. :evil:
Academic discussions do not hold up in court and this forum will not be a source of information that "may" lead to NFA violations, academic or actual.
Thank you for observing this minor inconvenience.
Cheers,
-TH
Welcome to the forum.
Any difference discussion between the P90/PS90 is welcome. However, postulating, divulging or attempting to ascertain the functional requirements to convert PS90 to fire full auto are strictly verbotten. :evil:
Academic discussions do not hold up in court and this forum will not be a source of information that "may" lead to NFA violations, academic or actual.
Thank you for observing this minor inconvenience.
Cheers,
-TH
uhh Im sorry Thermallator, im not used to NFA rules, sorry im from another country; In my country is forbiden to shorten the barrel so I gess that speak about the full auto conversion was allowed.
I imagined something like that, due to the lack of the full auto posts.
(but I see a lot of webs not banned that talks about mechanisms of conversion for the glock and so on, I mean that do an exersise of imagination is not forbiden , only the facts no...???)
Sorry again...
:shock: :shock: :shock:
I imagined something like that, due to the lack of the full auto posts.
(but I see a lot of webs not banned that talks about mechanisms of conversion for the glock and so on, I mean that do an exersise of imagination is not forbiden , only the facts no...???)
Sorry again...
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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No Problem Mad-o-Vic. I will explain something about the USA to you.Mad-o-Vic said:
In USA, you are allowed to purchase fully automatic weapons, suppressors and shorten the barrel, provided that you have it done by a qualified class III manufacturer (gunsmith), submit yourself to finger prints, FBI background check and pass. Many socialist states do not allow any of this such as California, New York etc - but the federal laws do not prohibit this.
Academic discussions are allowed and information pursuant to fully automatic weapons and their operation is also widely available.
The problem with the PS90 is that it was that sears or receivers were not imported prior to 1986 and thus no CIVILIAN will EVER own one in fully automatic.
Such is not the case with AR15 and variants and HK94 .. and so on. I could understand the discussion (not just academic) of converting one of those, simply because a Citizen may own the registered sear or register receiver. In such a case, a qualified class III gunsmith may convert a semi auto HK94 for example given that the customer has a registered sear that was made for the HK family of trigger packs.
As we know that there are no registered packs, sears or receivers of the P90/PS90 family of firearms, the ATF may construe any discussion academic or otherwise as an attempt to convert a semi-automatic carbine into a fully automatic one. While they would fail in court and justice would prevail, no-one wishes to incur the legal expenses of ones defense in ones intent in the court of law - simply because once the ATF decides to pursue a course of action (with unlimited funds) into the criminal arena - it is very difficult to shake them off and very costly to vindicate one self.
Furthermore, I do not know the integrity of any of the posters here. Should any of the members decide to follow through on the posted "academic" discussion and convert one (there is no legal way to do this), I am sure that this discussion forum would be subject to a subpoena.
If you consider that the State of California just sued the auto-manufacturers for polluting the air, it is not inconceivable for any liberal bent prosecutor to throw this forum under the bus and file criminal charges against the owner/operator of this board for allowing such "academic" discussions to take place.
It is always the purview of the Liberal in this country that the perpetrator of any crime (although guilty) has only committed such actions because he was subverted by such things as guns, forums and other forms of free speech. Hence, the guilt of the perpetrator is not focal to the individual and their actions, it extends to the manufacturer, seller, hoster and perhaps even the bed they have slept in.
Hence, today, the country is broken up into two ideologically warring factions. The Americans (true American, aka Conservatives) that adhere to the constitution and do not have alternate decipher for the content to suit their fancy or promulgate a political agenda. The Anti-Americans (Socialist aka Liberal) that like to change the constitution to suit their ill behavior of today(Clinton receiving a blow job under the presidental desk) do not take responsibility for their actions and blame all evil on inanimate objects, their manufacturers or simply their poor upbringing making their behavior not their fault.
And since Liberals believe that they are in essence not responsible for their actions, all methods and tools of temptation must be removed so that the socialists may live in peace and harmony. This is directly contrasted by the Conservative camp, that believes each person and that person alone is responsible for their actions and should any deranged individual threaten my life, I'm within reason allowed to use deadly force to defend my life, the life of my family and others. In some states, this extends to property as well.
And so, while free speech is codified in the constitution, the Socialists will twist and construe the true meaning of the word and use any means at every opportunity to criminalize it. Such tool/means may be frivolous criminal trials of free men who simply discuss such matters as you have proposed - so that they serve as a deterrent and an example to others that such activities will lead to jail time. If one is as to be so unlucky to get a Liberal Prosecutor and a Liberal Ludge, it would take a miracle to prove your intent was not to manufacture a fully automatic weapon.
The reason for that is the fact that most Liber judges are activist judges. This means that they wish to obstruct and change the constitution and create "mens-rea" pursuant to firearms offenses so that such convictions may be used in future prosecutions as an established precedent.
I hope you have found this brief explanation both educational and entertaining.
Cheers,
-TH
wooooow... :shock: :shock: :shock:
Are you Socialist...¿? ( Im Joking )
Well I agree 100% with you, at the end the socialism is a dictatorial restriction of the liberties in order to preserve the bad called liberty.
I live in a Socialist country, and I dont own a Ps90 due to this fact , even the ps90 is restricted due to his war looking aspect... so for me Yes it was an exercice of imagination curiosity and dreaming...
I belong to a minority that love firearms, and I coud tell you that we are very very bad seen here.
Well I will stop in the full auto paranoia...
one question? for buying in USA one barrel, you must to do somme paperwork..? I mean the barrels are controled?
Because here the guns, but also the frames, the barrels and the receivers are strictly controled.
Are you Socialist...¿? ( Im Joking )
Well I agree 100% with you, at the end the socialism is a dictatorial restriction of the liberties in order to preserve the bad called liberty.
I live in a Socialist country, and I dont own a Ps90 due to this fact , even the ps90 is restricted due to his war looking aspect... so for me Yes it was an exercice of imagination curiosity and dreaming...
I belong to a minority that love firearms, and I coud tell you that we are very very bad seen here.
Well I will stop in the full auto paranoia...
one question? for buying in USA one barrel, you must to do somme paperwork..? I mean the barrels are controled?
Because here the guns, but also the frames, the barrels and the receivers are strictly controled.
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3,531 Posts
No, barrels are not controlled. You may own a shorter one - but once again, if the ATF or FBI decide that it was your intention to mount the barrel into the unregistered firearm - then, that would be a violation of NFA rules without registering the firearm as a Short Barreled Rifle. You are allowed to own a short barreled rifle, as long as you register it and have the proper paperwork.
Therefore, it is not advisabe to own a shorter barrel than 16 inches for any rifles that you own, unless you have it registered.
The mere presence of the two items on your property in the USA may draw suspision and ATF may question your intent or motive for having such an item without the proper paperwork.
It's quite silly, since it takes about 1 minute and a $60.00 dremmel tool to reduce the barrel of any rifle to the desired length.
Once a person decides to break the law and use a firearm in the commision of a crime, the presence of the short barrel neither caused the crime nor made the person commit it. The person had to have intent on a crime to begin with, hence the shorter barrel plays no more importance than the vehicle he/she may drive, the gas they use or the meal they have eaten before they commited the crime.
However - reason and logic seldom win criminal court case and therefore most gun owning Americans are law abiding and respect the laws so that they may enjoy the rights (diminishing by the hour) that they Do have.
It is up to us to elect the right representatives into the White House and the Congress to reverse this tide of opression and blatant 2nd Amendment Rights violations.
The only reason any government removes the guns from their people either outright (UK, Australia) or gradually (USA, Canada) is because they fear them.
And when a government starts to fear its people, it's because they have a long term plan that may be upsetting to the middle and lower class. That is why they ebb the rights at every opportunity - being tragic homocidal act(s) involving guns (UK school shooting, Canada Montreal College Masacre).
Therefore, it is not advisabe to own a shorter barrel than 16 inches for any rifles that you own, unless you have it registered.
The mere presence of the two items on your property in the USA may draw suspision and ATF may question your intent or motive for having such an item without the proper paperwork.
It's quite silly, since it takes about 1 minute and a $60.00 dremmel tool to reduce the barrel of any rifle to the desired length.
Once a person decides to break the law and use a firearm in the commision of a crime, the presence of the short barrel neither caused the crime nor made the person commit it. The person had to have intent on a crime to begin with, hence the shorter barrel plays no more importance than the vehicle he/she may drive, the gas they use or the meal they have eaten before they commited the crime.
However - reason and logic seldom win criminal court case and therefore most gun owning Americans are law abiding and respect the laws so that they may enjoy the rights (diminishing by the hour) that they Do have.
It is up to us to elect the right representatives into the White House and the Congress to reverse this tide of opression and blatant 2nd Amendment Rights violations.
The only reason any government removes the guns from their people either outright (UK, Australia) or gradually (USA, Canada) is because they fear them.
And when a government starts to fear its people, it's because they have a long term plan that may be upsetting to the middle and lower class. That is why they ebb the rights at every opportunity - being tragic homocidal act(s) involving guns (UK school shooting, Canada Montreal College Masacre).
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980 Posts
this is totally off topic
but the Patriot Act- a conservative initiative, does serious harm to American civil liberties; it is unconstitutional to jail a citizen indefinitely without charge, and to eavesdrop without a warrant, but this is allowed under the patriot act.
Also, it is misleading to say there are two types of Americans. I know very few people who's beliefs are wholly "Conservative" or entirely "Liberal". Many people are a mix, and lots don't even care.
My belief is that a person has the inherent right to do whatever they please, so long as it doesn't affect the rights of others and it doesn't ruin the land.
Neither the "conservative" nor the "liberal" agenda is in-line with my way of seeing.
but the Patriot Act- a conservative initiative, does serious harm to American civil liberties; it is unconstitutional to jail a citizen indefinitely without charge, and to eavesdrop without a warrant, but this is allowed under the patriot act.
Also, it is misleading to say there are two types of Americans. I know very few people who's beliefs are wholly "Conservative" or entirely "Liberal". Many people are a mix, and lots don't even care.
My belief is that a person has the inherent right to do whatever they please, so long as it doesn't affect the rights of others and it doesn't ruin the land.
Neither the "conservative" nor the "liberal" agenda is in-line with my way of seeing.
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27 Posts
"In USA, you are allowed to purchase fully automatic weapons, suppressors and shorten the barrel, provided that you have it done by a qualified class III manufacturer (gunsmith), submit yourself to finger prints, FBI background check and pass. Many socialist states do not allow any of this such as California, New York etc - but the federal laws do not prohibit this."
This whole response was just FREAKIN' outstanding! Kudo's to you Thermilator!!! The only thing I might add, and huge fact that all the people in Washington seem to miss, is that you will never being able to stop criminals with laws or legisation. We don't even enforce the ones we have!!! It is our hearts, our parents, our schools and our upbringing that determine our willingness to do the "right thing". No amount of legislation will stop someone who is hell bent on doing something illegal. Do you think the bank robbers in North Hollywood were really concerned that converting their weapons to full auto was against the law when the purpose of doing so was to rob a bank?? It is absurd to think they even thought twice about it!!!! Would I do it ILLegally??? HELL NO. Would I go through the necessary leagal processes, background checks, and pay my Tax money to do it legally??? Of course!!! And I played with cap guns as a kid and got more than a few spankings so according to the liberals, it is amazing I even function in society, much less pay my taxes, own a home, and have a good job.
The unforntunate thing about most liberals is that the very ideals they promote, such as sex without responsibility, a handout without a hard days work, free needles, etc., etc. and of course their never ending quest to stip everything remotely referring to God from every nook and cranny of our government, are the very things that contribute to lack of respect for our laws and lack of respect for our fellow Americans.
And so while the programs they promote continue to erode the moral fiber of our country, they look to an evil piece of iron as the source for our problems. Don't think for a minute that they don't know the more they vilify our "evil" guns, the more it take the focus off of how pitifully their programs have failed us.
Converting your weopon to full auto is ILLEGAL. Thermilator is VERY correct in his assertion that discussing it could be considered a crime. In Arizona:
Arizona Revised Statutes 13-1004. Facilitation; classification
A. A person commits facilitation if, acting with knowledge that another person is committing or intends to commit an offense, the person knowingly provides the other person with means or opportunity for the commission of the offense.
I personally wouldn't want to leave it up to a judge to interpret what "means" is. Although the outcome wouldn't be anywhere near the same, telling someone how to convert their gun to full auto illegally is TECHNICALLY the same as telling a terrorist how to bypass security at an airport.
Instead of being coy about "theoretically" doing something illegal, why not join a group or write your congressmen to get the laws changed to allow any law abiding citizen willing to go through the process the right to own a fully auto rifle.
This whole response was just FREAKIN' outstanding! Kudo's to you Thermilator!!! The only thing I might add, and huge fact that all the people in Washington seem to miss, is that you will never being able to stop criminals with laws or legisation. We don't even enforce the ones we have!!! It is our hearts, our parents, our schools and our upbringing that determine our willingness to do the "right thing". No amount of legislation will stop someone who is hell bent on doing something illegal. Do you think the bank robbers in North Hollywood were really concerned that converting their weapons to full auto was against the law when the purpose of doing so was to rob a bank?? It is absurd to think they even thought twice about it!!!! Would I do it ILLegally??? HELL NO. Would I go through the necessary leagal processes, background checks, and pay my Tax money to do it legally??? Of course!!! And I played with cap guns as a kid and got more than a few spankings so according to the liberals, it is amazing I even function in society, much less pay my taxes, own a home, and have a good job.
The unforntunate thing about most liberals is that the very ideals they promote, such as sex without responsibility, a handout without a hard days work, free needles, etc., etc. and of course their never ending quest to stip everything remotely referring to God from every nook and cranny of our government, are the very things that contribute to lack of respect for our laws and lack of respect for our fellow Americans.
And so while the programs they promote continue to erode the moral fiber of our country, they look to an evil piece of iron as the source for our problems. Don't think for a minute that they don't know the more they vilify our "evil" guns, the more it take the focus off of how pitifully their programs have failed us.
Converting your weopon to full auto is ILLEGAL. Thermilator is VERY correct in his assertion that discussing it could be considered a crime. In Arizona:
Arizona Revised Statutes 13-1004. Facilitation; classification
A. A person commits facilitation if, acting with knowledge that another person is committing or intends to commit an offense, the person knowingly provides the other person with means or opportunity for the commission of the offense.
I personally wouldn't want to leave it up to a judge to interpret what "means" is. Although the outcome wouldn't be anywhere near the same, telling someone how to convert their gun to full auto illegally is TECHNICALLY the same as telling a terrorist how to bypass security at an airport.
Instead of being coy about "theoretically" doing something illegal, why not join a group or write your congressmen to get the laws changed to allow any law abiding citizen willing to go through the process the right to own a fully auto rifle.
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Re: patriot act
Besides, If I wanted to conduct covert operations, the last thing I would use would be email or phone. The most secure way to transim information these days is encrypted CD via UPS. 256 bit encryption key, you all have fun now with that enigma machine you hear!
-TH
Pretty much my thinking. The federeal government that protects me and my family while we sleep can waste oodles of reel on my phone conversations. Maybe they can tell me what my teenages are up to.snowbak said:
Besides, If I wanted to conduct covert operations, the last thing I would use would be email or phone. The most secure way to transim information these days is encrypted CD via UPS. 256 bit encryption key, you all have fun now with that enigma machine you hear!
-TH
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163 Posts
NFA Paperwork
Thermallator,
I agree with everthing you wrote above, and concur with your comments regarding ATF's potential scruitiny of the above subject matter and the not-so-happy outcome if they were.
However, you are incorrect about the Class III manufacturer data. You don't need a manufacturer or gunsmith to shorten a PS90 or any other firearm, you can file a BATF From 1(to make and register a firearm) with fingerprints and photos as an individual and simply pay the $200 tax, provided your background is clean, you will recieve the approved NFA registration and be able to legally carry out the modification. It is stongly discouraged however, to have parts for that conversion on the same premisis as the firearm prior to approval from the NFA, as that could construe the intent to perform the conversion before hand as you had stated.
Hope this is helpful to any and all.
Thermallator,
I agree with everthing you wrote above, and concur with your comments regarding ATF's potential scruitiny of the above subject matter and the not-so-happy outcome if they were.
However, you are incorrect about the Class III manufacturer data. You don't need a manufacturer or gunsmith to shorten a PS90 or any other firearm, you can file a BATF From 1(to make and register a firearm) with fingerprints and photos as an individual and simply pay the $200 tax, provided your background is clean, you will recieve the approved NFA registration and be able to legally carry out the modification. It is stongly discouraged however, to have parts for that conversion on the same premisis as the firearm prior to approval from the NFA, as that could construe the intent to perform the conversion before hand as you had stated.
Hope this is helpful to any and all.
Re: patriot act
The whole point of the 4th amendment is that the gov't needs to show cause before a search or seizure. I have not done anyting wrong, so I do not favor giving this up. I suppose you'd be ok with random searches of your home, since you have nothing to hide? :roll:snowbak said:
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520 Posts
Re: patriot act
"those that would give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
heed those words, friends!
precisely. i can't believe that a single one of you would consent to being secretly recorded, observed, wire tapped, whatever. that is absolutely ridiculous. the very idea tramples on our personal and GUARANTEED (supposedly, by the Bill of Rights) freedoms.
"those that would give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
heed those words, friends!
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11,944 Posts
None of you have any concept whatsoever as to how the process or 'evesdropping' or 'reading emails' works.
Its pure mathametics.
There are over 2 billion emails created daily. There are over 3 billion phone calls made daily. The shear number of personnel that would be required to read every email or listen to every phone call is astronomical.
Computer are used to 'read' and 'listen' to emails and phone calls, not people. These computers look for certain catch phrases tha have been programed into the search parameters.
ie, writing an email that says that 'I have a bomb or plan to bomb something or other' - I really don't and am only making a point here - will get your email or phone call a secondary look by computers to see if there is additional information that can be pieced together to form a cognizant meaning or threat. ONLY THEN will an actual person look at the email or listen to the phone call.
Only after a court order is issued is a wire tap made because there is now probable cause to actually listen or read what you are writing.
Nobody cares if you fart in bed. Nobody cares if you are gettin a BJ under the desk.
In the time it has taken me to write this response, enough emails and phone calls were generated to employ 1000 people for the rest of their lives just to read and listen to what was written or said.
Besides, the airwaves in the US are free territory. Anybody can intercept and listen to anything legally just so long as it is broadcast over the airwaves.
If the Government wants to know what the hell I ordered on my pizza, who the hell cares. I know, the colesterol police will get me!
If you are not doing anything illegal, NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THIS ENTIRE US OR ANY US ENTITY WILL READ YOUR EMAIL OR LISTEN TO YOUR PHONE CALL.
However, if you are doing something illegal, guess what, you already broke the law and you deserve to have your entire life scrutinized.
Its pure mathametics.
There are over 2 billion emails created daily. There are over 3 billion phone calls made daily. The shear number of personnel that would be required to read every email or listen to every phone call is astronomical.
Computer are used to 'read' and 'listen' to emails and phone calls, not people. These computers look for certain catch phrases tha have been programed into the search parameters.
ie, writing an email that says that 'I have a bomb or plan to bomb something or other' - I really don't and am only making a point here - will get your email or phone call a secondary look by computers to see if there is additional information that can be pieced together to form a cognizant meaning or threat. ONLY THEN will an actual person look at the email or listen to the phone call.
Only after a court order is issued is a wire tap made because there is now probable cause to actually listen or read what you are writing.
Nobody cares if you fart in bed. Nobody cares if you are gettin a BJ under the desk.
In the time it has taken me to write this response, enough emails and phone calls were generated to employ 1000 people for the rest of their lives just to read and listen to what was written or said.
Besides, the airwaves in the US are free territory. Anybody can intercept and listen to anything legally just so long as it is broadcast over the airwaves.
If the Government wants to know what the hell I ordered on my pizza, who the hell cares. I know, the colesterol police will get me!
If you are not doing anything illegal, NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THIS ENTIRE US OR ANY US ENTITY WILL READ YOUR EMAIL OR LISTEN TO YOUR PHONE CALL.
However, if you are doing something illegal, guess what, you already broke the law and you deserve to have your entire life scrutinized.
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520 Posts
no offense, friend, but i think that is pure and utter BS. just as we can't trust the government to protect our right to bear arms, i don't think we can trust the government to stay out of our business.
and you and i both know that that is not the point of this conversation- the whole point is that the government is not supposed to be snooping in on us whenever they want to.
even just typing the word "jihad" in this thread has now probably gotten it searched.
see how that works? how many of us are now being sifted through the digital filters and are now being filed away for detailed scrutiny at a later date?
it's not constitutional and it's not right. pure and simple.
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1 Posts
Is it paranoia when they are listening to you? :evil:
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