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Discussion Starter #1
So if I keep the barrel 16 inches (measured from bolt face with it closed) can I just add a buttplate spacer (to meet minimum overall length) and still have a non-nfa weapon? I searched around and couldn't find the answer.
 

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The barrel of the PS90 removed from the Flash Hider is less than 16 inches. You are in NFA territory and have a short barrel under the definition of the NFA.

As said above, barrel alone must be 16 inches or longer AND total length of the firearm has to be 26 inches or more. If the barrel is under 16 inches, a flash hider, barrel shroud, fake suppressor or something else must be permanently attached to the barrel to make it 16 inches or longer. Pinned, welded, etc....
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Bolt face to the end of the flash hider is 18.5 inches on a factory rifle.

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Breech face to the end of the flash hider is 18.5 inches on a factory rifle.

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Read my post. IF the barrel is removed from the barrel shroud on the PS90, the barrel is under 16 inches making it an NFA item. At least it is with mine and I am assuming that FN did not change the barrel lengths on the later manufactured PS90s.

Like some AR15 barrels that are sold at 14.5 inches in length, they become legal outside the NFA when either a flash hider or some other object is permanently pinned, welded, or attached to the end of the barrel to make the total length 16" or more.

I do not know where you are going with this but it sound as if you might be trying to maybe cut the end of the barrel shroud off to shorten the overall length. I would not do it myself but I guess that it could be done as the barrel shroud is pinned back far enough from the muzzle. I think though that you would need to make some modification to the chopped end of the barrel shroud to at least make it look like a polished firearm.

It would be easier if you just asked what it is you want to do and then we can give the the "real" answer.......

Just a thought.....
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sorry i was just looking at the threaded shroud that is available and was wondering why I couldn't just make the same thing but instead of keeping the full factory length make it 2 inches shorter and add a stock spacer to make up the difference.

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The barrel and sleeve.

You have to have something the full length of the barrel to snug up against the frame for the rifle to function other than a single shot.
 

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ok.

The PS90 Barrel is 16.04" and with the pinned flash hider it is 18.5"

The flash hider is there to meet overall length only.

ATF Rules state that the only time you need a permanent pinned, soldiered, etc is to meet BARREL Length. To meet overall length it does not say it has to be permanent..

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

Look at 2.1.3 and 2.1.4. They are separate and distinct.

So as long as the barrel is 16" or more, then adding a but plate to make it over 26" would be acceptable. I believe this is done with other rifles as well. But do not take my word, do your own due diligence.
 

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Yup OP, as stated, your barrel is over 16" and as long as your new buttstock brings your OAL to over 26" you are not making an SBR. This is not NFA material.

According to the ATF.

Do not install your shorter buttpad. Get rid of it, unless you have a normal PS90 which you use it for.
 

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I don't think that's correct. I welcome verified data though, my measurements show it's longer than 16"
FNs Website under specification specifically states it is 16.04".

If you take a tape measure you will see that with the flash hider it is 18.5" so the barrel without the flash hider is what FN states is 16.04"
 

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This dead horse is back again????...

If the BATFE can take duct tape and zip ties and fire two rounds with a single pull of a trigger, from a pile of parts and classify it as a machinegun, surely they can yank a non-factory buttplate spacer off a PS90 that simply slips in place and have the weapon fire a single projectile. Once they fire the single projectile, the weapon is classified as a firearm.

Step 2: The BATFE then measures OAL of said weapon. If said weapon measures less than the 26" legal length, it's an NFA weapon.

The reason this rule applies is because the weapon (and read the following very carefully and slowly...) has been modified from its original configuration since leaving the FN Herstal factory and deviates from the original sample weapon submitted to the BATFE for importation purposes.

Now the short answer: Don't cut the shroud and add buttplate spacers unless you want to do a form 1 and pay the $200 tax.

-SS
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
This dead horse is back again????...

If the BATFE can take duct tape and zip ties and fire two rounds with a single pull of a trigger, from a pile of parts and classify it as a machinegun, surely they can yank a non-factory buttplate spacer off a PS90 that simply slips in place and have the weapon fire a single projectile. Once they fire the single projectile, the weapon is classified as a firearm.

Step 2: The BATFE then measures OAL of said weapon. If said weapon measures less than the 26" legal length, it's an NFA weapon.

The reason this rule applies is because the weapon (and read the following very carefully and slowly...) has been modified from its original configuration since leaving the FN Herstal factory and deviates from the original sample weapon submitted to the BATFE for importation purposes.

Now the short answer: Don't cut the shroud and add buttplate spacers unless you want to do a form 1 and pay the $200 tax.

-SS
You make a very valid point there....

Would obtaining a letter from he ATF be enough to keep one out of hot water? Has anyone done this?

SBR is nice, but I'd like to keep the velocity as high as possible out of this thing.

How do they classify a gun with a folding stock for OAL? Don't they measure with the stock in the "use" position? I'm asking, not sure.
 

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A "Mother may I" letter would be the prudent thing to do, BUT you should be very explicit in your letter as any ambiguity will lead to an opening for prosecution.

-SS
 

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Discussion Starter #15
A "Mother may I" letter would be the prudent thing to do, BUT you should be very explicit in your letter as any ambiguity will lead to an opening for prosecution.

-SS
Roger that...

Anyone have an example of what to submit (wording, ect)?
 

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MK AK 47 has a 16" barrel and is 26" OAL.

However, when I must remove the buttstock completely, which I do when working on the firearm from time to time, it's length is under 26" when the buttstock is removed.

Same situation. Still not an SBR.
 

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How do they classify a gun with a folding stock for OAL? Don't they measure with the stock in the "use" position? I'm asking, not sure.
OAL is measured with the buttstock installed, if it is removable (for maintenance), and at it's fully extended position.

Now go ahead and measure your PS90 with the buttstock installed and at it's fully extended position to get your OAL.

If that number is greater than 26" *AND* your barrel is greater than 16" you do no have a SBR. According to the ATF.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think the sarge is on to something with the letter though. I don't need anybody kicking down my door and shooting my dogs.....
Also I think it would be wise to maybe engrave the stock extension with something stating that it is required for ATF compliance to make it known to the locals that it is a compliant rifle.

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With all that work and having to to send letters I would recommend you just pay $200 SBR fee. And when you remove that pined flash hider there is a very good change its not going to come off very easily. Especially if you used the PS90. I would like to think I am pretty good around machines and I was able to remove the pin in a drill press jig but, the threads on the shroud were basically welded. I tried everything I could to unscrew the shroud and nothing worked. Had to use band saw to cut the treaded area off. Lastly if you are able to accomplish all that, the barrel looks like a pencil without the shroud. If you were family or a friend I would first ask if you are allowed to make a SBR in your state...If you are go for it, if you can't make a SBR don't bother with it.
 

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Also I think it would be wise to maybe engrave the stock extension with something stating that it is required for ATF compliance to make it known to the locals that it is a compliant rifle.

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To each their own but I don't think engraving parts on your rifle proclaiming their compliance is necessary or changes anything in reality. Either it is compliant or it is not. For example, I don't engrave my 14.5" barrels with permanently attached muzzle devices with a statement of compliance.

Write the letter though if you'd like. The information you need on how to measure OAL is already known and is as clear as it needs to be for this situation, though. Your barrel needs to be measured to be over 16", once you have done that, your OAL is measured as such:



Here is the full ATF letter on how to measure OAL:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=explorer&srcid=0B0qyloA48O3XOWQ3NDc2NmItOWVlZi00NjEzLTlhMzYtZTgxM2FiNzBkMGU3

With regards to your situation, no further clarification is required.
 
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