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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, this is really a list for myself (and anyone else who might be considering it). I want to hear what people's reasons are for converting their PS90 to a SBR (soonish). Here's what I have come up with:

Pros

1.) The weapon was originally designed with a short barrel. This makes it more compact and better for PDW usage.

2.) This allows the attachment of a silencer.

3.) You'll be grandfathered in incase of new legislation next year (big one for me)

4.) Come on... it just looks cooler. Haha.

5.) Value increases over time.

Cons

1.) Lose about an extra 200 fps from the longer barrel

2.) Cost/hassle (obviously a big one)

3.) Legalities if moving/transporting interstate

4.) Possible BATFE "random" inspection

So what do you all think? Care to add to my list?
 

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With all the fees, costs of the barrel and new flash hider, and engraving. Plus, shipping of the stuff, and maybe of the gun, if you send it some place - You are looking at about $100 per inch that you are taking off the barrel :p

And, I think ya get about 200 fps difference.
 

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Don't forget the ATF is allowed to come to your house whenever they want to check it. So I would probably put Free ATF Random Search under "con" :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
tqtran said:
Don't forget the ATF is allowed to come to your house whenever they want to check it. So I would probably put Free ATF Random Search under "con" :)
I thought that somewhere on this forum that was debunked? :? Besides, I'm planning on using a trust to purchase mine, which changes things a bit (but that's beside the point).

Edited: found where I remembered reading about the debunk - here.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Edited the original post to include what ShipWreck and tqtran said. Thanks guys!

Hmm... idea for another thread...
 

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If a PS90 SBR is the only NFA weapon that you would own, I wouldn't really sweat about the ATF paying you a visit.

As far as moving out of state with the weapon, all you need is that form (I forget what that form is called.) and write down the time that it will be out of state from whatever date you write down to the day before of that date next year, i.e. 8/1/2007 to 7/31/2008.

Another plus for the SBR is that its value will increase over time.

Don't let any of this scare you. If you have a police chief or other chief LEO who's anti-gun, you can simply get a revocable trust and bypass the chief LEO sign off.

One more thing is to know whether your home state will allow SBR's or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The_Real_McCoy said:
If a PS90 SBR is the only NFA weapon that you would own, I wouldn't really sweat about the ATF paying you a visit.
Yeah, I want to buy a silencer for it if I end up going this route, but I don't have plans for many other NFA weapons, per se. Maybe a 9mm can eventually.

As far as moving out of state with the weapon, all you need is that form (I forget what that form is called.) and write down the time that it will be out of state from whatever date you write down to the day before of that date next year, i.e. 8/1/2007 to 7/31/2008.
I'm not sure I understand this. If I move, I can only have my item with me for a year?

Another plus for the SBR is that its value will increase over time.
Added! This wasn't one that I had thought of.

Don't let any of this scare you. If you have a police chief or other chief LEO who's anti-gun, you can simply get a revocable trust and bypass the chief LEO sign off.

One more thing is to know whether your home state will allow SBR's or not.
I'm planning on going the trust route so it'll be easier to leave my NFA items with family members in the event of a deployment. I've also checked the states where I'm most likely to be stationed and they all allow SBRs.
 

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Another PRO:

I have a reason that I can't go to Kalifornia. :)

And the ATF coming uninvited is bunk. That is only for SOT's and unless they have a GOOD reason (think "serious crime being committed and guys in black with MP5's are coming through the windows and doors") they make an appointment.
Just owning an NFA weapon does not make you any more or less at risk for an uninvited visit from the ATF than your non-NFA weapon owning fellow citizens.
 

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FSCJedi said:
The_Real_McCoy said:
As far as moving out of state with the weapon, all you need is that form (I forget what that form is called.) and write down the time that it will be out of state from whatever date you write down to the day before of that date next year, i.e. 8/1/2007 to 7/31/2008.
I'm not sure I understand this. If I move, I can only have my item with me for a year?
That form is for travelling out of state with a MG when you aren't moving permanently and is good for one year. There is another form you fill out when you move to another state that changes the registered address with the ATF. It is a permanent change of residence and does not have the one year expiration.
 

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Abiqua14 said:
FSCJedi said:
The_Real_McCoy said:
As far as moving out of state with the weapon, all you need is that form (I forget what that form is called.) and write down the time that it will be out of state from whatever date you write down to the day before of that date next year, i.e. 8/1/2007 to 7/31/2008.
I'm not sure I understand this. If I move, I can only have my item with me for a year?
That form is for travelling out of state with a MG when you aren't moving permanently and is good for one year. There is another form you fill out when you move to another state that changes the registered address with the ATF. It is a permanent change of residence and does not have the one year expiration.
Thanks for clearing that up. What you've said is what I've originally meant to say.
 

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ick said:
Definite Positive
You have a second barrel backup should parts eventually become hard to find or no longer produced (say in 50 years).
The barrel is pretty much destroyed when CMMG removes it. I think they may be able to get you an original barrel that survived if you request it but most are destroyed in the process.


ick said:
Definite Negative
You have to keep a copy of the license for the SBR with the rifle at all times.
It’s not required. But it’s a good idea to avoid hassles. It’s not really a negative though. If you keep the gun in a case of any kind you can have the paperwork with it without a problem.

ick said:
Possible negative:
You have the SBR rifle in your car on the way to the range and get pulled over for speeding. Officer sees the weapon and creates a mountain of hassle for you even though you are in complete compliance.
Definitely true. If you are ever approached by any officer of the law about C3 items expect a decent delay. Most officers really don't know the laws and are very skeptical of legality. This goes if you are a CCW holder as well. If you get pulled over I believe most officers pull that info up when running your license and at that point I would expect them would assume you do have a weapon in the car with you.


One thing you can do to help yourself in the second and third situation is to set up a free web email address. Name it something very straight forward like your lastnameNFA. This way you can have all of your form 4's , 1's electronically saved somewhere. If you don't have the form with you or if the officer wants someone back "at base" to look at it to verify you have a generic email address they can use. Give them your email address and pw and they can view your documents if needed. This way you are covered if you forget a form or if they want a second set of eyes.

I would only suggest that in a worse case scenario, but it helps to have a back up rather than get something confiscated. Local PD actually have no right to view your NFA forms. They are tax documents and only the IRS or NFA branch can request them. However local PD are charged with upholding the law and that means you might have to prove it’s legal. It’s a very fine line and tons of grey area.

I wouldn't worry too much about it anyway. I was requested to show proof of a silencer only once and that one time I showed them the wrong form. I gave them a form 4 to a different can I own on accident. They looked it over and sent me on my way. Most of the time they have no idea what they are looking at.

In the end I would suggest keeping forms with you however you are not required to show them to local law enforcement. It would probably save you time and hassle if you offer though.
 

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Couple of additional corrections....

A couple corrections/clarifications for info posted in this thread:

First of all, ALL interstate transportation of an NFA firearm is handled on a Form 5320. It does not matter if you are moving or simply on vacation. There is no separate form for permanent move. If you move to a new in-state address, there is no requirement to notify NFA Branch.

Secondly, regarding an SBR being an "investment", watch out for this pitfall. A Form 1 SBR is anything but an investment. Barring legislation that bans further manufacture of SBRs (and none has ever been introduced) and as long as parts and services are available, Form 1 SBRs tend to lose value and are difficult to sell. Here's why...

If a prospective SBR buyer is legally able to own an SBR, then you, the SBR owner wanting to sell is going to be competing against the buyer's ability to Form 1 it himself. Since the PS90 host gun is widely available, your SBR PS90 will be worth the sum total of the parts minus the overall condition of the gun. This is NOT the definition of an investment. Also consider that when the sale of your SBR becomes interstate, other factors come into play such a second transfer tax, shipping costs, dealer fees and the additional X factors of trusting a total stranger with an accurate description/representation of the gun AND the need to pre-pay this total stranger, the buyer will simply go the Form 1 route which is cheaper, easier and less perilous. An in-state transfer eliminates some but not all of these concerns.

Add to this already daunting sales environment the following added impediment...

In Form 1ing an SBR, you are required to engrave or stamp your receiver with your Form 1 info. This is a regulatory requirement. This price of admission doesn't bother most SBR owners, however it does personalize the gun in a manner NOT preferable to a new owner. Once your PS90 SBR is engraved with "D. Jones Des Moines, Iowa" (or worse) it's going to be fairly difficult to compete with a virgin PS90 semi-auto that can be Form 1ed to an SBR from scratch.

Barring legislative changes that affect the market, the only SBRs that can be considered investments are factory SBRs. Factory SBRs generally are not made in huge numbers and are not personalized like a Form 1 gun is. They also maintain future C&R eligibility either by age or by rarity since they are factory original.
 

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Excellent first post for sure.

"Secondly, regarding an SBR being an "investment", watch out for this pitfall."

I couldn't agree more. In fact the ONLY NFA investment is a machine gun and even that can become deflated with new legislation.

In reagrds to the engraving its best to limit it to basics when doing it if you feel you may sell the item one day. In this case use a first initial not your name. Use all initials if possible. The other option is to have a place manufacture it for you so that its says CMMG not J Smith.
 

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workingman1976 said:
4.) Possible BATFE "random" inspection

wow i never heard of a home search by the atf over having a sbr before
Happens all the time but the ATF scares the SBR owners to secrecy otherwise their kids wont be accepted to the university. :eek:
 

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so let me get this stright you pay 200 bucks for a tax stamp and they randomly show up sometimes? or do they inform you they will be coming? last time i checked illegal searching was still illegal in this country
 

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workingman1976 said:
so let me get this stright you pay 200 bucks for a tax stamp and they randomly show up sometimes? or do they inform you they will be coming? last time i checked illegal searching was still illegal in this country

No; this is one of the most common misconceptions about title 2 stuff. As an individual (i.e. not a dealer) you absolutely don't give up anything by having weapons legally registered with form 1s or form 4s.

All that happens is your silencer/MG/SBR/AOW/SBS/DD is now on the BATF registry as a properly registered and tax paid NFA weapon. There are no additional requirements ever again, except in the case of MGs/SBS/SBR/DD where you have to submit a form 5320.20 when you wish to travel out of state with them or move to another state.

You absolutely don't give up anything in the way of rights or have to submit to any sort of inspections or anything, short of perhaps having to show your form 4s or form 1s to an officer of the law who sees your weapon and gets curious about it. I have never had that happen in the 10 years I have owned NFA items. I haven't even had my forms checked at the airport when I fly with MGs and silencers in my checked baggage.

Some tinfoil hat conspiricists may dislike the registry aspect of the NFA stuff, but there are hundreds of thousands of registered items (and counting).

I suppose one negative aspect is that all states are a little different when it comes to NFA items. Some are totally unrestricted past the federal guidelines, some allow some kinds of NFA items but not others, some totally outlaw all NFA items, and some add additional registry requirements on top of the federal ones. If you have to move to a non-friendly NFA state, you may have to sell your items or put them in holding somewhere until you move again to a friendly state.

HTH

edited to add SBS/SBR/DD/AOW in my explanation of 5320.20 for the sake of completeness
SBS-Short Bbl shotgun
SBR-Short bbl rifle
DD-Destructive device
AOW-Any other weapon
 
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