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OK, this may be a dumb question, but here we go:

What does it take to purchase a SCAR barrel assembly, specifically an assembly with a short barrel?

Is it unlawful to purchase or possess a barrel assembly if, once installed, the rifle would be an unlawfully short length to possess without the necessary paperwork?

Or, to ask the question differently, is a barrel a rifle? Or does it not become a rifle (and thus unlawful under a certain length) until it is mounted to the remainder of the firearm mechanism necessary to chamber and fire a rifle caliber round?
 

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Nothing wrong with having the short barrel assembly by itself. However, owning both the short barrel assembly and the SCAR without an approved Form 1 is something you'd want to avoid doing because it could be viewed by authorities as illegally having the intent to manufacture an SBR.
 

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I bought my assembly before my form 1 got approved. No FFL required to have it shipped to you. I just had a buddy that doesn't own a SCAR keep it in his safe until I was ready to install it.
 

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What does it take to purchase a SCAR barrel assembly, specifically an assembly with a short barrel?
Money.

Is it unlawful to purchase or possess a barrel assembly if, once installed, the rifle would be an unlawfully short length to possess without the necessary paperwork?
It's unlawful if you have the barrel and the weapon in the same geographic location.

is a barrel a rifle?
No. It's a barrel.

-SS
 

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I bought my assembly before my form 1 got approved. No FFL required to have it shipped to you. I just had a buddy that doesn't own a SCAR keep it in his safe until I was ready to install it.
FYI if you want to be pedantic this is technically a NFA violation (i.e. federal firearms law violation).

"Possession" is not defined as physical possession it's basically defined as ownership. If you legally own a 10" SCAR 16S barrel assembly and a SCAR 16S, even if the parts are two states away from each other, you are technically in violation.

Leaving them with a buddy is not an acceptable out. Having your buddy buy it, then sell it to you once you got your stamp, might be another story... but this is not legal advice and I am not your NFA attorney.

Its pedantic, and its stupid, but that's the law.

If you really want to be safe, as I've done, you don't take ownership of the barrel.

One of my LGS (the one I use for all my non-NFA xfers) is an FN dealer but only for handguns (they don't carry or stock any of the rifles) so he was happy to order me a barrel assembly (given hefty deposit) and hold on to it until my stamp gets approved (any day now!).
 

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OK, this may be a dumb question, but here we go:

What does it take to purchase a SCAR barrel assembly, specifically an assembly with a short barrel?

Is it unlawful to purchase or possess a barrel assembly if, once installed, the rifle would be an unlawfully short length to possess without the necessary paperwork?

Or, to ask the question differently, is a barrel a rifle? Or does it not become a rifle (and thus unlawful under a certain length) until it is mounted to the remainder of the firearm mechanism necessary to chamber and fire a rifle caliber round?
You can also take your 16" barrel and have it cut down to 14.5" (or whatever), put a flash hider on it, and pin it to the barrel. No need for any tax stamp, registration, or wait time. The only requirement is obviously that you commit to a specific muzzle device and hire the services of a gun smith. I'm relatively sure this is what I'm going to do to my 16" barrel at some point.
 

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Why would you give up bullet running room then weld on a muzzle device to bring it back to where you started before chopping it up?? I've never understood that.

Leave it at 16 or get the stamp then do it.
 

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"Possession" is not defined as physical possession it's basically defined as ownership.
Really? Possession is defined as control. If the buyer does not have physical control of the barrel, he is not in violation as the barrel is not in itself classified as an NFA item. In other words, if he cannot gain access to it, he has no control of it and therefore does not have possession.

This does not reach into a prohibited person category and the prohibited person category has been ruled on and that is the case where the prohibited person cannot maintain or dictate disposition of an NFA item if he or she became a prohibited person.

-SS
 

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Really? Possession is defined as control. If the buyer does not have physical control of the barrel, he is not in violation as the barrel is not in itself classified as an NFA item. In other words, if he cannot gain access to it, he has no control of it and therefore does not have possession.
I understand your point, but you're thinking of it logically, not like a lawyer :)

The problem is that "stored at a buddy's house" does not fully remove the item from your control. You decided to place the item and (at least in the eyes of the law) you also control when you receive the item back. If they can show that you have some level of control or some level of access to the item, you can be charged.

Think of it from a perspective where you're on the stand testifying in your defense -- "do you own this barrel which is prohibited for you to possess because you also have a platform to mount it on, and no where to mount it legally?" Answer: "Yeah, I own it, but i'm keeping it at my buddy's house" :)


Sadly there is existing precedent of someone being hit with NFA violation for keeping parts a significant distance apart (hundreds of miles, if i recall correctly) that are not by themselves illegal but only fall under constructive intent. I will dig up and post the case later today.

If instead of "stored at a buddy's house" you could prove that you had no actual control of the item -- for example, you stored the item in a storage unit belonging to your friend, and the storage unit place required that you be on a list of authorized users to gain access to the facility, and you were not on that list, then you've got stronger case that the item is not actually under your control.

Storing it at a friends house, you have to prove somehow that you can't just walk over and get your item back. Isn't your friend going to give you the item back any time you ask for it? You still "control" it.

Owning any item, legal or illegal, even if you store it miles away at a family member's home or a parked vehicle or a in a storage unit is still constructive possession of that item, whether it is a dog, a computer, or a gun part. Constructive possession is not a criminal offense, it is a type of possession. Constructive possession of something illegal to have is illegal constructive possession.


Since having the parts to build a weapon that is illegal with no legal use for them remains illegal, owning those parts stored in different places would still be "constructive possesson" no different than having them in front of you, not because "constructive possession" means you can construct anything, but because you technically still possess an NFA weapon illegally.


If you possess (own/control) the items which you can only use to make an illegal item you could be charged.

It's a stupid law. And stupidly enforced. But that's the sad reality.

That said -- do I think you're going to get busted if you buy a barrel and store it with a friend? Probably not. Would I do it? No.
 

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Intent. By storing a short barrel at a bud's home, the intent is NOT to break the law.

I would say a judge would be hard pressed to issue search warrants on all of the OP's friend's homes just to see if they may be storing a short barrel for the OP's SCAR, or any other weapon he may have.

Lemme adjust my tinfoil hat. Oop, brb. There's someone at the door...

-SS
 

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FYI if you want to be pedantic this is technically a NFA violation (i.e. federal firearms law violation).

"Possession" is not defined as physical possession it's basically defined as ownership. If you legally own a 10" SCAR 16S barrel assembly and a SCAR 16S, even if the parts are two states away from each other, you are technically in violation.

Leaving them with a buddy is not an acceptable out. Having your buddy buy it, then sell it to you once you got your stamp, might be another story... but this is not legal advice and I am not your NFA attorney.

Its pedantic, and its stupid, but that's the law.

If you really want to be safe, as I've done, you don't take ownership of the barrel.

One of my LGS (the one I use for all my non-NFA xfers) is an FN dealer but only for handguns (they don't carry or stock any of the rifles) so he was happy to order me a barrel assembly (given hefty deposit) and hold on to it until my stamp gets approved (any day now!).
If you purchase an NFA item out of state and it's transferred to a dealer in state for them to hold while your paperwork is processed, who legally owns the NFA item? According to the ATF the dealer OWNS the item you paid for. So by the ATF's definition having somebody else hold it is fine.
 

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If you purchase an NFA item out of state and it's transferred to a dealer in state for them to hold while your paperwork is processed, who legally owns the NFA item? According to the ATF the dealer OWNS the item you paid for. So by the ATF's definition having somebody else hold it is fine.
If you paid for it you own the item. You just dont have possession. A few years ago i purchased an m16 had it transferred in. The sherrif in wisconsin county i live in refused to sign off. While it was processing the batfe changed the rules in wisconsin requiring trust sign offs for full autos.

The gun was mine but i couldnt take possession. It sat at my class3 guy for nearly a year before i exhausted all avenues of possession and sold it.

Possession and ownership are different things.
 

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If you paid for it you own the item. You just dont have possession. A few years ago i purchased an m16 had it transferred in. The sherrif in wisconsin county i live in refused to sign off. While it was processing the batfe changed the rules in wisconsin requiring trust sign offs for full autos.

The gun was mine but i couldnt take possession. It sat at my class3 guy for nearly a year before i exhausted all avenues of possession and sold it.

Possession and ownership are different things.
Here's a post from a Class 3 dealer about ownership in the eyes of the ATF.

"The ATF considers it the property of the dealer until the transfer is completed.

If you paid for it, and the dealer doesn't transfer it to you, then they consider it a civil matter. If you drop a gun off for gunsmithing and the dealer refuses to give it back? Civil matter. They won't even treat it as a stolen gun/silencer because the item still belongs to the dealer while it's in their books. They'll tell you to take it to civil court if you want it back."

So by the ATF's retarded definition of ownership, he's good to go storing the barrel somewhere else.

By definition then isn't filing a Form 1 showing intent to make an SBR. OH NO!!! You have a rifle and a hack saw? Hide your dog!!!
 

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Here's a post from a Class 3 dealer about ownership in the eyes of the ATF.

"The ATF considers it the property of the dealer until the transfer is completed.

If you paid for it, and the dealer doesn't transfer it to you, then they consider it a civil matter. If you drop a gun off for gunsmithing and the dealer refuses to give it back? Civil matter. They won't even treat it as a stolen gun/silencer because the item still belongs to the dealer while it's in their books. They'll tell you to take it to civil court if you want it back."

So by the ATF's retarded definition of ownership, he's good to go storing the barrel somewhere else.

By definition then isn't filing a Form 1 showing intent to make an SBR. OH NO!!! You have a rifle and a hack saw? Hide your dog!!!
Thats my point. In court of law the property is yours. Its like a minor or unlicensed person inheriting a car. The car is theirs but they cant use it until they are licensed.

Short barrels cant be in your immediate possesion if you have means of using it.

Stupid as hell but thats how it is. Yet another govt agency that ran amok long ago.
 

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Intent. By storing a short barrel at a bud's home, the intent is NOT to break the law.
I agree with you 100% in concept. It's just unfortunate that's not the way it works.

You wouldn't want to stake your freedom on being able to "prove" that you do not have the intent. You certainly have a valid point to try to build your defense on, but the point is that you are in a defensive position -- as you are, at least on paper, breaking the law as currently written and enforced as long as you are defined to have "control" over the item.

As I mentioned, there's an existing case where someone was prosecuted for this exact situation -- components were literally hundreds of miles apart in someone else's possession, but were still determined to be "in possession." I will dig it up.

According to the ATF the dealer OWNS the item you paid for. So by the ATF's definition having somebody else hold it is fine.


It's a different process for legally transferring an item through a defined ATF process vs. handing an item to someone else without any paperwork.

In the case of a transfer, yes, the dealer does legally own the item -- that's because there's documented paperwork that indicates that it was transferred from say SilnecerShop to MyGunStore. MyGunStore then legally transfers it to you.

Back to my original point -- if your buddy bought the item and was holding it for you to buy from them once you had your stamp, that's legal and that's the circumstance you're talking about with a dealer-to-dealer transfer.

to simplify:

LEGAL: Vendor -> 3rd party -> You

ILLEGAL: Vendor -> You -> 3rd Party

It's easier to think of when you talk about a complete NFA item. If you went and bought an NFA item in a person-to-person situation at a gun show, you can't take it to your class3 dealer and start a transfer. You're not allowed to own the NFA item, until you have approval (stamp/paperwork) to do so.

TL;DR: If you own a SBR barrel assembly and a host to put it on illegally, and you have access to it - which I would reverse to read unless you can prove you DO NOT have access to it-- unless you have the stamp, you are breaking the law. My issue with the "buddy's house" is I don't think you can prove that you don't have access to it... not to mention the issue of you actually taking it and bringing it to your buddy's house is without question a violation...

All that said, do I really think you're likely to get prosecuted for this? Of course not. Is my tinfoil hat on too tight? Maybe :) But again, would I trust my freedom (and my gun rights, and my future employment, and my clearance, etc) to that? Absolutely not.


Short barrels cant be in your immediate possesion if you have means of using it.


Stupid as hell but thats how it is. Yet another govt agency that ran amok long ago.

That's it, exactly.
 

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I digress. This has gotten silly. Myself and famerted have it right, by the way...:mrgreen:

-SS
 

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I digress. This has gotten silly. Myself and famerted have it right, by the way...:mrgreen:
Yeah I still have to very respectfully disagree (re: the "have it right") based on (1) existing NFA prosecution and (2) direct legal opinion from experts in the field.

One very important thing you are mistaken on, respectfully -- Remember that there is no intent to violate element to violate the NFA. Like speeding, you do not have to intend to speed to be charged with speeding. Constructive possession included.

Constructive Possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and intention at a given time to exercise dominion and control over an object, either directly or through others. US v. Turnbough, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 11886, *6.

The government may establish constructive possession by demonstrating that the defendant exercised ownership, dominion or control over the premises in which the contraband is concealed. Id.

Note that that does not say that you have the intent to assemble -- just that you have the intent to "exercise dominion and control" over the object.

I would not want to be in a legal position where I'm defending that I have no control or dominion over an asset that I purchased, took physical possession of, and then placed in a third party location that I have friendly and easy access to...

But agree completely we're hopefully talking about an issue that will never matter, regardless, for 99.99% of the people reading this thread, ourselves included.

references:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/08/constructive-possession-nfa-tr.html
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/9/1/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/07/08/nfa-and-constructive-possession-myth-or-reality/
 

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Yeah I still have to very respectfully disagree (re: the "have it right") based on (1) existing NFA prosecution and (2) direct legal opinion from experts in the field.
The existing prosecution was a tack on charge for someone conducting criminal activity, like selling illegal machine guns.

Note that that does not say that you have the intent to assemble -- just that you have the intent to "exercise dominion and control" over the object.
So you can't have an AR pistol and AR rifle?
 
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