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In my neck of the woods, we had a rather tragic shooting in Denver on 10/10/2020. The gentleman on the right has just fired the shot that will kill the gentleman on the left, who is in the midst of spraying a bottle of pepper spray at the gentleman on the right. If you look closely, you can see the casing ejected from the gun, and damn if that (at least to my untrained eyes) doesn't look like an FN-509T (thread protector on the barrel, suppressor height sights, and what looks like the promo streamlight flashlight mounted on the rail below...)

There were competing protests/counter protests between self-identified "antifa" and "patriots". Both protests had been peaceful and were winding down and dispersing when a single black guy in a "Black Lives Matter" T-shirt and a white guy wearing a "You're ****ing right, biker lives matter" T-shirt, surrounded by several other, seemingly friendly people, got into a verbal confrontation. Curse words were exchanged. A random, older, white guy in khaki pants tries to physically separate the two. He is rejected as a neutral moderator by said black guy, replying, "Don't you f$#%^ touch me!". More fighting words ensue. Big white guy then pulls out a can of pepper spray, leading to a lot more cursing...

At about this time, someone off-camera says, “Get the cameras out of here or I’m going to f—- you up,” and attacks the reporter for the local NBC station who had been filming this on his iphone. There is a 12-second gap in that reporter's video. The local NBC station had contracted a security guard for their reporter. That security guard (who had a valid concealed carry permit, but not a valid permit to act as a private security guard) got between the reporter and big white guy with can of pepper spray. Big white guy with pepper spray slapped the security guard's face with his left hand. Then, he fired his pepper spray at the security guard (see dramatic picture, below!!!). Security guard has drawn his pistol and fires at pepper-spraying dude. Pepper spray << jacketed hollow point defensive load ammo, and pepper spray guy dies.

So, was the action of security guard justifiable self-defence or 2nd-degree murder, as he has now been charged... I encourage you to check it out, there are several other first-person videos of the situation out there...

137977
 

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If it’s true that the news station hired an unlicensed security guard...oooh boy...talk about lawsuit from the dead guy’s family.
 

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murder.
if somebody wants to actually hurt you, they are not going to use spray.
spray is an obvious and outright declaration of less than lethal intent.
 

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murder.
if somebody wants to actually hurt you, they are not going to use spray.
spray is an obvious and outright declaration of less than lethal intent.
I disagree. While OC spray may be less than lethal normally, it is still harmful and it can kill someone with respiratory issues. If someone pulls some sort of spray on me I assume they mean me harm, especially if we were already in a confrontation. The sprayer also had slapped the shooter. Best idea, don't get in that kind of situation. If someone gets sprayed, they have no way to defend themselves. Spray used offensively is an escalation and I feel the shooter, whether or not I agree with his politics, shot in self defense. Had mr spray intended to deescalate the situation, he would not have acted aggressively. That spells intent to me. It is a sad state of affairs that their altercation happened in the first place and that it ended in a death.

Perhaps more information will come out and change my mind. At this point, I feel the shooter chose not to risk incapacitation by the spray and fought back with his pistol after having been struck first.
 

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murder.
if somebody wants to actually hurt you, they are not going to use spray.
spray is an obvious and outright declaration of less than lethal intent.
False...so much false in that statement...

OC Spray dude showed intent to use force and was used in an offensive manner...whether the means were less-than-lethal or not...the person that shot...did so in self-defense...being unlicensed security guard will get him in hot water as well as the news station...but the fact remains...the OC spray guy was the aggressor regardless of political bias or regardless of the tool he used to carry out his aggression...
 

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I disagree. While OC spray may be less than lethal normally, it is still harmful and it can kill someone with respiratory issues. If someone pulls some sort of spray on me I assume they mean me harm, especially if we were already in a confrontation. The sprayer also had slapped the shooter. Best idea, don't get in that kind of situation. If someone gets sprayed, they have no way to defend themselves. Spray used offensively is an escalation and I feel the shooter, whether or not I agree with his politics, shot in self defense. Had mr spray intended to deescalate the situation, he would not have acted aggressively. That spells intent to me. It is a sad state of affairs that their altercation happened in the first place and that it ended in a death.

Perhaps more information will come out and change my mind. At this point, I feel the shooter chose not to risk incapacitation by the spray and fought back with his pistol after having been struck first.
I was gonna say the same thing.
 

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I hope the news station and security company get the **** sued out of them.
I would like to know more about this hired security guard.

if the security guard was hired through a company and that company is licensed for either armed or unarmed security, then that’s fine.

if the new station just hired some Joe off the street without a certificate or license then they’re probably screwed.

however it sounds strange about this armed security who apparently have a CCW and carry his personal weapon? Unless he is in the security business for himself then that sounds hokey. No legit armed security joint would let its employee carry their personal weapons while on duty.

when I worked as unarmed and armed security for Pinkerton nearly thirty years ago, they issued me company sidearm and I had to qualify through their training program.
 

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Murder, the pepper spray guy was backing up and had not drawn the spray, indicating attempted de-escalation, making the Democrat the aggressor.
 

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After reading up on this incident with some local Denver sources (as though the media can be trusted with obtaining facts).

A. Apparently security guard in either Denver or State of Colorado must be individually licensed in addition to the employer being licensed. Such was not the case for me being a security guard in New Mexico nearly thirty years ago.

B. The news station asked for unarmed security from Pinkerton.

C. Pinkerton subcontracted out to a local security firm called Isborn Security Services LLC. This company has a license to operate but only its owner Matthew Isborn has the individual license to operate as a security guard. Dolloff does not have a Denver security guard license yet he was working as an employee for this LLC.

I’m not a lawyer and I’m sure anybody can sue anyone but I think that the news media and Pinkerton are safe and Isborn Security Services is screwed.

So, I think that not just this LLC is toast for employing an unlicensed security guard but Dolloff is double toast for practicing without individual license AND carrying an unauthorized weapon while supposed to be working as an unarmed security guard.
 

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What this is is a classic example of the loss of 2 lives. One is dead and the other might as well be as his life is ruined forever.

Lawyers will play their game and ruin more lives by sucking the life and money out of the defense member while the taxpayer's are on the hook for more money to prosecute this case. The only winners here - the lawyers.

Security is supposed to be there to maintain the security of the sponsor, and to de-escalate confrontations so that the sponsors safety is ensured.

And because this is Demver, a city controlled by liberals, the rest of Coloradans will pay with additional gun control laws that will do absolutely nothing except make life harder for law abiding individuals.

Edit....I removed erroneous information.
 

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^^^Ain't that the TRUTH!^^^
 

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It'll be a tough sell for a "self defense/ justifiable shooting" in Comrad-ado.
Where I live a teenager shot and killed his mother's boyfriend after the guy dared him to and walked. A yr or so later a guy shot a rival after he came to his house threatening him. In that case the shooter was charged w/ attempted murder (spent a yr or two in jail)before being aquitted by a jury. Alot of variables come into play in these situations. One thing's for sure. I'm interested to see how it shakes out.
 

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In the Atlanta shooting with the drunk driver in the Wendy's parking lot I agreed with the police's action (to fire) because if your aggressor knows you have a firearm, I feel less-than-lethal (in that case a tazer-type device) methods could be an attempt to take your more-potentially lethal weapon. Which puts your life in danger.

Bear spray et al is similar ... I'm not decided but am inclined to feel the same way as tazers. If you're backed into a corner (a slightly different situation) and someone is spraying you with bear spray (struggling to see and breathe), would you expect to be justified defending yourself?
 
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I agree that this incident is a very bad deal. Family and friends of both men are going to be saddened by this event. It could affect people from both men for generations. Not sure if either man had kids or grandkids that depended on them. I do know that this incident was totally unnecessary.

I did search about this shooting and found several videos. It seems to me that the dead guy was running his mouth on multiple occasions with different people. He was adamant about people not filming him in public. Not sure why he thought people couldn't film him. Maybe he knew they could but just want to run his mouth and try to intimidate people. Just based on what I saw from some videos, the dead guy was aggressive with people. I can't say for a fact that the dead guy was aggressive with the unlicensed security guy.

My question is whether or not the NBC station has a responsibility to know if the people they hire are licensed or not. The same question goes to Pinkerton when they hire people to do work for them. I would have to believe that both NBC and Pinkerton have some liability in the fact that the guy was not licensed and should have been licensed.
 
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