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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
It seems we get a lot of people who post things like "I want a PS90 but I am afraid that ammo and magazines are too scarce/too expensive/etc so should I get a (fill in the bullpup platform here) instead?" so I thought I would take a minute to post my collection of thoughts on the subject. Not everything I am going to post below is my own. Some of it was cut-and-pasted from other posts here and on other forums, in an attempt to collect my thoughts last year and convince myself why exactly I wanted a PS90.

If you are a "gun collector" and just want one to add to your safe, then nothing I am going to post below will matter in any way. You will just buy one and it will enjoy a proud spot among your collection. It is certainly a "cool" gun (I know I have wanted one for years if for no other reason than SG-1 had them) and its uniqueness alone makes it something every collector would want at least one of.

If you are someone who just wants a cool looking gun "toy" to plink with, there are probably better & cheaper alternatives than the PS90 just from the cost-per-round alone. Maybe a P90-looking 10/22 conversion would be better for you.

If however you are, like I was, looking at the PS90 from the perspective as a serious defense weapon, then by all means... read on. (I am also attaching the document I created with photos & charts, but the entire text is below.)

View attachment CDW-PDW.pdf

First off, you need to realize that the PS90 (as you probably know already) is the semi-automatic-only civilian version of the FN P90. The FN P90 is classified as a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) and as such was designed to fill a niche role. Once you understand this, the rest comes into perspective.

What is your PDW? (Personal Defense Weapon)
From a civilian EDC (Every Day Carry) perspective, rapid deployment from concealed is where defining a weapon for personal defense starts. To me, this means a pistol. Police officers carry a pistol on their hip for their own personal protection and leave the long gun (shotgun and/or carbine) in their patrol vehicle until the situation calls for it. Like most people in this country, I am not kicking down doors to meth dealer's fortress-style homes nor am I a soldier headed down-range to the sandbox where I will be engaging threats at 500m or more on a regular basis. As an average, law-abiding citizen who lives in a relatively stable 1st-world country with laws to keep people in check (for the most part...) I cannot walk into the local Starbuck's with a rifle slung at the ready an order a tall caramel macchiato without having the local SWAT team called to deal with me. In the civilized real-world in which we live, that means that a weapon which you will call upon to defend you has to be hidden, and that means a pistol.

Think about it... Under what circumstances would an average citizen deploy a long gun of any kind in the U.S.? To me, the first two situations that come to mind are (1) home defense and (2) some sort of large-scale civil unrest (whether it is man-made or naturally induced matters not). Outside of those two, hunting, and training, my rifle just doesn't see the light of day. The pistol, on the other hand, is my daily companion and is accessible and deployable in a wide variety of situations: eating out, going to the mall, traveling, and generally being out and about. So for most of us, the pistol will be the primary go-to firearm when things go sideways - simply because it's always there.

But sometimes you may be in just one of those situations where you require more than a pistol, but when a full-size rifle is just not appropriate or convenient to have with you. In this context, I think the need is going to be more than just 0 to 5 feet encounters given the increasing frequency of mall, theatre, school, church, etc. shootings where longer distance engagements are involved. This is where I see the value of RDS (Red Dot Sight) on a pistol, especially for the "over 40" crowd. From a civilian social chaos perspective (back to that civil unrest scenario), however, pistols become secondary to a larger pistol-caliber carbine (PCC), which would in turn be trumped by the rifle-caliber carbine.

For the Military, they would designate this the realm of the Personal Defense Weapon, or PDW. Strictly speaking, a PDW is a small and compact weapon that fires full-auto, has a smaller round than a typical assault rifle or carbine, and can defeat soft body armor. The intent of the PDW is to provide non-front-line combatants a reasonably serious fighting tool that is less bulky and ponderous than an issue rifle. The idea is that they are able to put up a fight if necessary with a weapon capable out to 150 meters or so. For a long time, the PCC filled this role with weapons like the H&K MP5. By the late 80’s, it became evident to many militaries and law enforcement agencies that pistol-caliber carbines were losing their effectiveness against adversaries equipped with the most modern lightweight body armor. While small rifles chambered in 9mm Luger allowed their users to minimize their “load out” weight and size envelopes, the guns left a lot to be desired in the performance department. Yes, you can use the same ammunition in your pistol as you can in your Heckler & Koch MP5 – but the rifle’s slightly longer barrel length and full automatic fire capability only gave moderate increases in effectiveness.

The FN P90 Personal Defense Weapon was developed in Herstal by Fabrique National between 1986 and 1987. The primary design objective was essentially to introduce a modern replacement for the pistol-caliber carbine to equip military personnel whose prime activity was not that of operating small arms. Troops such as artillery, signals, transport and any whose duties required that they be effectively armed for self-defense but who did not need to be burdened with a heavy weapon while performing their normal tasks . This carbine would be just as lightweight, have select-fire capability, and deliver a high-velocity, lightweight round capable of doing a number on light body armor. The P90 has since been marketed as a special operations and law enforcement weapon.

The P90 is a blowback weapon firing from a closed bolt. The overall design places great reliance on ergonomics, for example, the pistol grip, with a thumbhole stock, is well forward on the receiver and in front of the action of the weapon (known as a bullpup configuration) so that when gripped, the bulk of the receiver lies along the firer's front (weak side) arm. The controls are fully ambidextrous; a cocking handle is provided on each side, and the rotary selector switch is located under the trigger.

The gun that resulted was nothing short of…well… futuristic. It was created with the use of modern (for the 80’s, anyway) materials and design techniques. Largely made of polymer, the gun held a 50-round top loading magazine, was extremely compact, and even included an integrated reflex sight. Hello, end-of-20th century! It is quite the modern take on the venerable bullpup carbine design.

The most controversial part of the P90’s design is the ammunition it fires. To the well-informed, the 5.7x28mm cartridge is simply a cut-down 5.56x45 (.223 Remington) cartridge. The latter, used every day by hunters stalking tiny to medium-sized game (like prairie dogs and other varmints) is also NATO’s “go-to” cartridge for the individual soldier. US politicians heard about the armor piercing capabilities of the new cartridge and basically declared them “cop killer” bullets. What our esteemed members of congress declined to tell the American public was that MOST rifle bullets with high ballistic coefficients and moderate velocity will also pierce light body armor.

I won’t get into the effectiveness of the round just yet (that will come a little later) – but simply to establish a baseline for those unfamiliar with the 5.7x28, just think “it’s half of a .223”. The previous statement isn’t 100% true, but it will do for now. Some of the 5.7mm bullets used in commercially available loadings are merely lighter .224 bullets, and can also be loaded into .223 cartridges. The size and weight savings allowed FN to pack 50 rounds into a small magazine, and the 5.7’s lack of heavy case taper allowed them to design “stick” magazines instead of “banana” shaped ones.

Since weapons meeting these criteria are all but unobtainable for civilians due to their fully-automatic select-fire nature, for non-military use I like the term coined by author B.R. Kurtz in his book "Size Matters", the Civilian Defense Weapon, or CDW. Even moreso than a Military PDW, the CDW is meant for covert carry. This is not in the same class as a Concealed Carry Pistol and it isn't meant to be. Obviously, the applications for such a weapon are going to be limited, but when the time comes that you need something more, the CDW at hand is going to be way better than the full-sized Battle Rifle in your safe at home.

Almost epitomizing the essence of the CDW concept, the P90’s development represented a nice leap forward in the compact rifle market. And much to our delight, FN began selling a civilian-legal semiautomatic version in 2005. This rifle is appropriately named the PS90.

The PS90 differs from its submachine gun counterpart in two ways. First, the select-fire switch and capability has been removed (making it semi-auto only), and the barrel was lengthened to 16.1” in order to meet US regulations on minimum barrel length (16”) and minimum firearm length (26”). Other than that, the gun is pretty much the same as a P90. This is why we love FN. This weapon is my first choice for a CDW, the FN PS-90 in an SBR (Short-Barreled Rifle) configuration, which allows you to legally shorten the barrel back to the P-90's original 10.4" length. This requires some additional paperwork and a $200 tax to the BATFE per gun, but really transforms the weapon into the handy little CDW it was originally designed to be.

For this exercise, I suppose maybe we should consider what a PDW/CDW really is and not be locked into THE definition. Personally I do think it's something more than a pistol (and less than a rifle); but I think maybe a RDS equipped pistol is capable of filling this role--depending on the set up and the operator. I'm a fan of an RDS-equipped pistol, but honestly a set up with a large-MOA dot and typical shooter performance beyond pistol ranges, it just doesn't fit what I think the definition of a PDW should be.

My AO (Area of Operations) is suburban, so a PCC/SMG (Pistol Caliber Carbine/SubMachine Gun) will work well in this situation for most people as their PDW. Due to the shorter ranges in a suburban setting, there just isn't the need for a longer shot that would be required by rifle-caliber PDWs. As a subset to the SMG class, I'd break it down to full size, as in Go-To-War SMGs (Thompson, UZI, Sterling, MP5, etc) and mini class guns, (MACs, MP5-PDW, Mini UZI, and maybe even the Skorpion). The mini class guns are certainly easier to carry on a daily basis than something like a large and heavy Thompson. The ranges in my AO are such that a pistol caliber is "do-able", especially when combined with a platform that offers 3 or 4 points of contact for support.

The PS-90 may not be someone else's first choice, (and it is usually due to ignorance based on the controversy, scarcity and expense of the 5.7x28mm round it fires) but there are several reasons I selected it as my family's go-to long-gun. First and foremost is because it is the only "long" gun my wife has ever even considered wanting to own or shoot. The FN PS-90's compact size and smooth ergonomics means comfort, as well as the low report and recoil, make it an ideal gun for someone new to shooting. My wife liked it so much she wanted one immediately. She actually convinced me that we needed two of them. Why did we need two? That leads to the second reason.

As someone who only has limited funds to equip myself and my family for possible scenarios, I like the idea of having the same platform for each member of my family for logistical reasons.. For the same reason that the Military issues the same items to each soldier, I want us to have the same weapons systems and other items so we can share spare parts, magazines, and ammunition. Buying one caliber in bulk is way cheaper in the long run than buying smaller quantities of multiple calibers. Also, if the need arises, we can re-supply each other's weapon in the event that one of us has run out or lost our backup ammo & magazines.

A third reason for choosing the PS-90 is size. It is an extremely compact weapon system (especially when SBR'd) and able to fit into all sorts of covert carry bags and packs. Its small size also helps to keep it one of the lightest long-guns around. The fact that the weapon is small, compact, and light means you could conceivably carry it all day long with you, even concealed in a large messenger bag or backpack, and not give it a second thought. Trying to keep weight loads manageable is a serious and constant adversary to the "bug out" scenario. I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find a weapon system that is any lighter and is as effective for our perceived needs, especially when you factor in the weight of a "combat load" of at least 180 rounds of ammunition and magazines. The PS-90 uses 50-round top-feed magazines, and loaded they each weight approximately one pound. Compare that same approximate weight to a loaded 30-round AR-15 magazine and you see where you can carry 40% more ammunition per pound with the PS-90 vs. the AR-15.


The 5.7x28mm Round
A disadvantage of the small caliber / high velocity route is often argued to be the lack of terminal effectiveness in soft tissue. A lot of time has been spent comparing the 5.7x28mm round to its parent cartridge, the .223 Remington, and this is where most of the controversy about the round being inadequately underpowered arises. There is no escaping the fact that the 5.7 mm rounds are smaller and less powerful than the 5.56 x 45, which has itself been criticized for lack of effectiveness, and produce smaller wound channels in ballistic testing. It will never be the equal of the 5.56 at any range, but it was not meant to compete with the 5.56. It was meant to replace a handgun, or pistol caliber SMG... not a rifle/carbine...it is small and relatively light. The PS-90's advantages over an AR-15 are that it has 1/3 the recoil impulse, much lighter, 66% larger magazine capacity, fully ambidextrous, better ergonomics, smaller size, easily maintained, and has less chance of over penetration of targets.

Considering the intended use of the round is a replacement for the 9mm in certain situations, it would be best to compare apples-to-apples for a change and look at the cartridge in relation to its pistol brethren. The true comparison should be to the 9 x 19 military ball loading, which the PDW rounds are intended to replace. Proponents of the small caliber rounds point to the fact that unlike conventional pistol ammunition their pointed bullets lose stability and turn over on impact, creating a much larger wound channel than the small caliber would suggest. Some anecdotal accounts of the use of the P90 in action support this, while others (especially from US police sources) report a worrying lack of effectiveness. This seems to parallel experience with the 5.56 x 45; small-caliber high-velocity (SCHV) bullets sometimes work spectacularly well but on other occasions fail badly, depending on shot placement and how it performs thereafter. Large caliber bullets tend to have a more consistent effect.

The 115 grain 9mm round weighs approximately 12 grams. To put that into perspective, the 230 grain 45ACP comes in at a whopping 20.9 grams! The 27 grain SS195 round weighs in at a svelte 6.1 grams. In layman’s terms, 50 5.7x28mm cartridges weigh about 85% of what a loaded 30-round magazine for an MP5 would weigh! This is a significant increase in firepower with a weight advantage. It doesn’t get any better than that. The 5.7x28mm round weighs approximately 1/2 of the weight of the round it was designed to replace. In my opinion, controversy over the 5.7x28mm round seems misguided. Different rounds have different compromises. This particular round lets you carry 150 high-energy rounds in 3 magazines, with the same total weight as 75 rounds of 9mm. The only tradeoff is a bit of lost effectiveness vs. the heavier .223 round. That’s a compromise I’d be glad to make.

Ballistic gelatin tests reveal that the 31-grain SS190 rounds penetrate between 10 and 13 inches in 10-percent gelatin. Some experts believe that this amount of penetration is insufficient for LE work. Others point to actual shootings and the rounds' propensity to tumble, causing a wound channel equal to the length of the bullet. Individual rounds of 5.7 x 28mm weigh about half of what a 9mm Luger cartridge weighs. FN claims that felt recoil of its cartridge is also about half of the 9mm Luger round. It is more powerful than pistol rounds yet not nearly as powerful as the full size 5.56 NATO cartridge. Most people like to claim that the energies generated by the 5.7 x 28mm cartridge are about one-third of those generated by the 5.56 NATO rounds, but those people are basing their information on shooing the 5.56mm round from a 16" barrel. I feel that this is an injustice. The best feature of the PS-90 is its incredibly compact size which allows it to be carried comfortably much more readily than an AR-15 carbine. The over-all length (OAL) of a PS-90 (or SBR'd PS-90 *WITH* a suppressor) is equal to the OAL of a 7" barreled SBR'd AR-15.

The disadvantages of short-barreled 5.56 x 45 guns are many. The excessive power brings with it considerable muzzle flash, blast and recoil, making the weapon extremely uncomfortable to fire indoors. Also, the shorter the barrel and the lighter the gun the worse these will be. Short barrels also significantly reduce the terminal effectiveness of the SS109 / M855 bullet, so much so that a 40grain TMJ round fired from the PS-90 has 78% of the muzzle energy of a 55grain M855 bullet fired from a 7" barreled AR-15 SBR weapon. I for one am of the opinion that losing that 22% of power is a good trade-off for having almost no recoil, a much lower muzzle flash and blast, and having 40% more ammunition on hand for the same weight.

The 5.7mm round yaws once after 2-3" of penetration and suppose to stay yawed while moving and leaving an elongated wound. 5.7 punches through soft body armor, very well. Addition of any hard plates render or ceramic inserts defeat the round. The question still lays in what the round does when it enters the human body.

The following is quoted from an anecdote found on the internet:

"When I was active [duty military in Iraq], I never had much to do with the M16A4 or the M4A1, mainly because of my duties as the gunner on an M1 MBT. I had a P90 that I picked up off a dead insurgent in March of '04. Great weapon and in excellent condition, but a bit of an oddity for a ******* to have. I knew that the Saudis had P90s, so I guessed that he either stole it or was AWOL or something like that. It looked like he had taken pretty good care of it, he was wearing a rucksack containing his cleaning gear and 13 loaded magazines which I helped myself to. I had the chance to use it in action a couple of times - on full auto it just tears into people (ever watched Stargate on the SciFi channel? Except on ******** and not weird alien guys with snakes inside of them). During a 5-8 round burst, all I'd see was a mix of sandy dust and "pink mist" come off of his torso, next thing he was just lying in the dirt looking like something had ripped a piece off of him. First time with the '90 I just threw up right there because it looked so damn awful I felt sick, almost made me want to throw it away or turn it in or something, but it saved my ass and I guess I'm kinda glad I held on to it 'till the end. I just felt a bit safer with it, inside and outside of my tank."
And here are some quotes from Sandy Wall of Houston, TX PD SWAT:

" The 5.7mm round has 379 ft-lbs of energy, compared to 1300 ft-lbs for the 5.56mm NATO (and compared to 356 ft-lbs from the 9mm FMJ). The recoil from the 5.7mm round is much less than even the 9mm. The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration."

"The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds. "
And still more from famed gun writer David Fortier:
"Currently, there have not been enough actual shootings with this combination to clearly define performance. It was used in the well-known Lima, Peru Embassy incident. In another well-known incident, Houston PD SWAT responded to a man firing an AR15. He was killed by a shot in the chest attributed to the P90, although several shots were also fired by 5.56 weapons. I am also privy to an incident in Iraq where an American soldier was hit with a 5.7x28 round fired from a P90 during a certain raid. Hit in the hip region, he dropped instantly and tumbled down a flight of stairs. It should be kept in mind, though, that a hit in this region with most any caliber would likely have had the same effect."

"Would I rather have the P90 SMG than a 9x19 handgun loaded with ball if there was the chance I would be attacked by assault-rifle-armed and body-armor-clad hostiles? Yes: Poor terminal performance at 900rpm is better than rounds failing to penetrate."
The ideal would of course be to combine effectiveness against both protected and unprotected targets. Some point out that the West's current opponents do not usually wear body armor, but it would be very short-sighted to assume that this will continue to be the case. As noted above, no cartridge in the PDW class can hope to penetrate the kind of body armor currently being worn by Western military forces so some argue that it is best to forget about AP ability and concentrate on soft target effectiveness, relying on headshots to deal with armored targets. But there are, of course, various classes of body armor, and insurgents may not choose to wear the very bulky and heavy hard-plate military issue. Furthermore, if well-armored opponents became the rule this would shift the balance of advantage back to the SCHV route, as the flat trajectory, light recoil and large magazine capacity of 5.7 mm weapons would increase the probability of achieving a headshot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
What I did not mention in this when I wrote it last year was the fact that pretty much any of the rounds offered to civilians will not hesitate to penetrate level IIIA kevlar when fired from even an SBR'd PS90. Level IV plates are going to stop anything, even .308, so of course they are going to stop the 5.7x28mm round, but the performance of the round to penetrate soft armor is pretty significant in my opinion. I don't see any of the other "pistol" rounds being able to do that, not even when fired from a pistol-caliber carbine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I am glad you guys enjoyed my post / write-up. I had contemplated posting it a few months ago, but decided not to at that time for a bunch of reasons.
 

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The 115 grain 9mm round weighs approximately 12 grams. To put that into perspective, the 230 grain 45ACP comes in at a whopping 20.9 grams! The 27 grain SS195 round (although this round cannot be legally imported into the US for civilian sale) weighs in at a svelte 6.1 grams.
Great post. You might want to think about editing what you said about the SS195 round not being able to be legally imported into the US for civilian sale. It can be and I think most of us 5.7 users have bought it.
 

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Nice write up. :?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Great post. You might want to think about editing what you said about the SS195 round not being able to be legally imported into the US for civilian sale. It can be and I think most of us 5.7 users have bought it.
Good catch. I confused SS195 and SS190 there. I just deleted the whole part in parenthesis altogether since 27grain is SS195 and the SS190 is 32grain. The SS195 is indeed civilian legal, and the SS198 is the same ammo with a hotter load which is (supposed to be) limited to LEO sales only, but since there is no law preventing it you can find it for sale to civilians as well.
 
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Au Contraire! I've found them helpful or interesting or entertaining and they tend in most cases to address topics that noobs in particular are eager to find answers for. They stand out and save a lot of time in tedious searches of old threads. And for my money (so to speak) all ya'll moderators do a real fine job of using discretion in keeping the numbers of them from getting out of hand! Thanks!

No one reads the sticky threads.

I too think it would make a good sticky- the OP put a lot of thoughtful stuff together - nicely done!
 

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I've found them helpful or interesting or entertaining and they tend in most cases to address topics that noobs in particular are eager to find answers for. They stand out and save a lot of time in tedious searches of old threads.
You'd think that would be the case, but sadly no. Most don't want to take time to read they just want to post their question because they want an answer now.
 
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Imfromthegovt:

Great read, enjoyed the hell out of it--thanks. I own a PS90 SBR & a Five-seveN and feel adequately armed around the house. I agree that it's a great PDW.
 
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While doing research on the 5.7x28 round I started saving actual shooting stories I came across. Although I haven't verified each report... here they are:

The Wikipedia article on the Fort Hood shooting says 43 soldiers were hit, with 13 fatalities, using SS192 and SS197SR ammo. That’s a pretty high fatality rate, given that trauma care was being provided even before the end of the shooting spree. On the other hand, the fatalities may have been close-range execution shots. The article also states; "According to the responding nurses, the blood loss inside the building was so heavy they were unable to maintain balance, and had difficulty reaching the wounded to help them." That may be exaggeration, but it certainly doesn't sound like the round leaves tiny pinhole wounds.

In a July 2010 drive-by shooting in Envigado, Colombia, two cartel gunmen armed with Five-seven pistols opened fire on a group of bystanders outside a nightclub, leaving 9 people dead and 10 wounded

The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident.

Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality.

There was a shooting in Houston - Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD: Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."

Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation. - Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting with the Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. While both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. It might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.

Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within.

There is a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."

Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.

There was another (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that failed to tumble/expand and kept going. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.
 

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Frustrating as it may be to have to address the same #&*% questions over and over, part of the point of a forum is (or should be) for those that "know" to share their knowledge with those who lack it - but have made an effort to seek it by finding the forum. My PS90 I bought out of shear personal interest. I only got interested in, and bought, my SCAR after careful consideration gleaning information and shared experiences from this great forum! I, and no doubt many others, truly appreciate the resource of everyone's collective knowledge, as well as your patience! Pay it forward, sticky or not! I think I'm repeating something someone else already expressed recently - that this is about the best moderated forum going. Thanks for your time & effort!

You'd think that would be the case, but sadly no. Most don't want to take time to read they just want to post their question because they want an answer now.
 

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Wow before this i didnt even know what a ps90 was and now i want one :)
Very good info and well articulated. Thank you.
I usually dont read long posts on any forum as they butcher the english language. the effort to decipher turns on my ADD disorder switch and i move on,but you my friend held me captive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Falconbobb, my wife is a highschool English teacher... so my grammar is pretty good. ;) When I slip, she is usually right there, and all-too-eager to correct me. LOL! As you can tell, I proof-read the hell out of this and spent quite some time on it. Originally, the only reason I did it was for myself. I wanted to put all my fragments of idea to paper and clear up just what it was that I thought about the PS90 and the 5.7 round because it can get real easy with all the gun magazines to loose sight of what exactly you were thinking when the next SBR AR hits the market looking oh-so-sexy and they are easier to carry mags for and to quickly reload. I guess this article was just to prove to myself that I didn't make a mistake and that I didn't have any real "need" for anything else, not for my intentions of what my "needs" really are. Like any tool, though, what you need in your toolbox may differ from what someone else needs in their toolbox.
 

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