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Discussion Starter #1
What would happen if you squeezed the tip closed on an SS195LF with a pair of pliers? I've mentioned before that I like the performance of this round, but out of a PS90 the information I'm seeing says it only penetrates about 10 inches in Ballistics Gel, I'de like to squeeze another couple of inches out of it so it meets the minimum standard, so would closeing the tip give me that extra boost?, or would there be some other effect?

Is it possible to safely boost the powder charge to get that extra bit of penetration?, if so what would you recomend?

Is there any other way I can get SS195LF to meet the minimum standard?

Is my information on only 10 inches of penetration incorrect?
 

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Well i guess it would tumble out of the gun by changing the areo dynamics you create a unstable projectile....It would have to hit straight on for the effect to change the pentration depth so if it hit tumbling it would lose depth not gain that is just my .02 cents
 

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only 10 inches?

bad guys usually don't take the form of a charging rhino, and the ones who break into your house are not going to be so fat that the PS90's penetration should be an issue. I'm kind of fat myself, 10 inches will go most of the way through my chest!!!!
 

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Hmmmmmm

I always see these discussions poping up about the five seven round, but, do you really think if you fire three rounds in to the chest of an intruder or attacker that he isn't going to be put down? These types of "what if" questions always make me laugh ! If these people or criminals are not militant trained any well placed round is going to put them down. Ten inches of penetration into a soft target is fatal, especially a center punch to the chest. Again the five seven round is not designed as a thousand yard weapon !
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Who said anything about a thousand yards?

The 12 inch figure comes from the FBI standard, and has come to be the standard for most people, and organisations. The reason 12 inches was chosen was to compensate for an imperfect shot/angle, what if the bad guy is turned with there side faceing you?, what if you have to shoot thrue a bone?, what if there wearing heavy clothing?, what if there behind cover? Not every shot is going to be agaist a stationary target like on the fireing range, and unlike the fireing range a bad guy may be shooting back, and that has the tendency to throw off ones aim. Sure in theory all you need is 4 inches of penetration thats enough to reach the heart, but that would require the bad guy to be standing at attention with his chest faceing you, and wearing only light, or no clothing kindof like the affor mentioned paper target. Not all shots in the real world will be that way, infact most won't be hence the 12 inch standard, 12 inches is the minimum you need to account for the worst possible case scenario in terms of shot placement/angle. This is why you do not use bird shot in a shotgun against a bad guy same scenario. If your going to start talking about "good enoughs" you might as well take it to it's logical conclusion, a BB gun would be perfectly acceptable for self defense because after all if your shot placement is perfect you should have no problem hitting the bad guy in the eye.

While 10 inches MAY infact be fine, I want 12 to account for all scenarios (short of heavy armor).

I'm only talking about pinching the very tip closed it couldn't disrupt the flight path that much could it?
 

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Hmmmmm

Any and all modifications to the original tip will alter bullet path. A round of this type with even a friction point will cause it to tumble and role. As for your bad guy scenario, I don't know how good of a shot you are or how you were trained or by who, no offense meant, I have extensive fire arm training and some times forget others do not. As for the shot, as a I stated earlier, "aim small miss small" ! Simply aim for the neck it has a 3inch variable side to side and a six and a half up and down. Place a shot center of the neck it severes the corotted artery, right will split the adams apple and voice box along with another vien filling the lungs with blood, or shoot to the rear about 1 to 1.5 inches from center and this will severe the t3 vertibrate and end all nerve functions to the body. Also if the attacker is hit in bone, this is actually to your benifit, bone fragments and flys apart when struck by a bullet aiding in the wound cavity creation. Besides the fact that most home invasions shooting take place at less than 15 yards. If you can not make a head or center mass shot at that distance, it may be time to buy a shotgun. You must also realize that most of these bullet ratings are for 50 to a 100 yards at 15 ft the attacker will be recieving the rounds full velocity and energy which will cause severe damage. I do agree with you in the fact that it would be nice to see a bit better penetration at certain distances. There is a member that is making some nice ammo and I think I will be trying it out, from the sounds of it the rounds he is developing are quite a bit ballisticaly better than the rounds we have now. I mean no offense to you what so ever and the 1000 yard comment is because every forum I read people keep talking about the FiveSeven and the PS 90 as if they are meant to be long range weapons? Even FN will tell you this is a PDW not a sniper rifle. We all must also realize that this cartridge is in its infancie and several of the plat forms its launched from are a new design compared to say the AR15 or the Ak47.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I never said I couldn't make the shot, I just don't want to have to RELY on it. Like I said with the right shot placement a BB gun is lethal in theory, but I don't know anyone who would seriously rely on it, I'm not calling this a BB gun, I'm just makeing a comparisin. While I may well get a head, neck, or heart shot I have to assume as a matter of prudence I won't, that way if the shot is not perfect it's compensated for. It's the same reason to have the weapon in the first place, you hope not to need it, and in all likelyhood you won't, but it's better to be prepared, and have it, and not need it, than need it, and not have it. The same goes for that extra 2 inches of penetration you probably won't need it, but it's nice to have it just incase you do.

Does the muzzle velocity under 15 yards still allow SS195LF to reach the minimum, oor did I missunderstand you?

What about filling the tip with lead?
 

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Small_Arms_Collector said:
What about filling the tip with lead?
I think that might get you into the same lead to jacket ratio thing that makes SB193 restricted.
I would check with the AFT before doing that.

Another option would be doing something simular that wildeye suggest in another thread:

wildeye111 said:
Also, here is some info if you or anyone else wants to make your SS195 HP bullets perform much much better in terms of expansion upon impacting a target. I do this to my SS195's for the ones that I keep on hand, not for plinking......Go to a local hobby store and ask for modeling clay- don't get the type that air dries..lay the clay about 1/4 in. on a table-grab the round and press the HP nose down into the clay about three or four times- this insures the cavity fills completely, the clay should ooze back out over a few minutes- let it sit for 20 minutes or so then come back and wipe off any expanded clay. Go out and test the rounds between the non filled and filled on the same object- I tested them on ballistic clay, phone books and even a couple of old holiday turkeys.
 

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Bullet velocity

I do believe the ss197 or ss195, I can't remember which reaches between 2,300 fps and 2,900 fps leaving the sixteen inch barrel. The ballistics posted all over the net are from the SBR barrel of the P90, if I remember correctly. Like I said this cartridge is in its infancee and even the AR had its nay sayers back in its beginings. Personally I prefer the PS90 to the standard AR 15 as the PS90 does not spew filth into the action and the reciever like the AR does. Makes for a more reliable weapon. Although I do also own two of the new gas piston style AR's and they are extremely more reliable than the old design. Yes, I to agree with you that more penatration from the rounds out of the PS90 would be better. But, as the other member stated, be careful about altering thos bullets in that way, so as not to piss the ATF off because ounce they are on you its like trying to beat a crack head off with a twig ! I don't know if they would say anything about filling it with lead? Wouldn't that just make it a soft nose bullet and not in the AP class? Also, Another member is making some pretty spectacular ammo and I plan on trying all of it ! I was also wondering if one could crimp the round like my match grade ammo, allowing the powder to burn a little longer and build more power in order to drive the bullet faster! Course this could cause premature wear on the PS90's action and chamber.
 

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Old tricks are also splitting of bullet tip with a knife or slashing a cross-shaped incision on the tip of bullet's point. These incisions, one or two, should not necessarily be very deep, but just scratches; depth one millimeter or so. They'll enhance expansion of bullet's point. More recent innovation is "Loeffelspitzung" of bullet tip. (German: "Loeffel" = spoon or small dipper; "Spitz" = point or tip). It may be done by carving or simply by pressing a shallow "dimple" on the side of bullet tip. Loeffelspitzed bullets are usually as accurate as intact projectiles in flight, but they shall tumble after the hit, being asymmetric.

Trajectory of spoonpointed bullet is somewhat more crooked than trajectory of intact projectile. If the spoonpointing is uniform (width and depth of each pit or dimple are similar on each bullet) trajectory of every bullet is also similar. Sight may be re-adjusted for shooting with spoonpointed bullets. These projectiles shall loose their flight stability and tumble over in flight, but the range is usually about a thousand yards. (Depends on twist of rifling and width/depth of a dimple). Air resistance shall slow down the rotational rate of spoonpointed bullet until it is too slow for gyro-stabilization. Shortened hazardous range is beneficial from viewpoint of shooting safety.


Point of solid brass 4.7 mm spoonpoint bullet. Considerably less asymmetricity shall be efficient if the bullet is a long pointed boat-tail projectile, just marginally gyro-stabilized in it's flight, but stable within all practical ranges of actual shooting.

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA10.html
 

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Realize that the 5.7 hollow point doesn't act like a traditional hollow point like a JHP in a handgun does. The 195 tumbles - it doesn't expand.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
gau5shooter said:
Old tricks are also splitting of bullet tip with a knife or slashing a cross-shaped incision on the tip of bullet's point. These incisions, one or two, should not necessarily be very deep, but just scratches; depth one millimeter or so. They'll enhance expansion of bullet's point. More recent innovation is "Loeffelspitzung" of bullet tip. (German: "Loeffel" = spoon or small dipper; "Spitz" = point or tip). It may be done by carving or simply by pressing a shallow "dimple" on the side of bullet tip. Loeffelspitzed bullets are usually as accurate as intact projectiles in flight, but they shall tumble after the hit, being asymmetric.

Trajectory of spoonpointed bullet is somewhat more crooked than trajectory of intact projectile. If the spoonpointing is uniform (width and depth of each pit or dimple are similar on each bullet) trajectory of every bullet is also similar. Sight may be re-adjusted for shooting with spoonpointed bullets. These projectiles shall loose their flight stability and tumble over in flight, but the range is usually about a thousand yards. (Depends on twist of rifling and width/depth of a dimple). Air resistance shall slow down the rotational rate of spoonpointed bullet until it is too slow for gyro-stabilization. Shortened hazardous range is beneficial from viewpoint of shooting safety.


Point of solid brass 4.7 mm spoonpoint bullet. Considerably less asymmetricity shall be efficient if the bullet is a long pointed boat-tail projectile, just marginally gyro-stabilized in it's flight, but stable within all practical ranges of actual shooting.

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA10.html
OOOOKKKK :evil: .

Not to be an ass but, the only people that seriously buy into that cut a cross in the tip of the bullet BS are morons, at most it will cuase the "petals" to simply break off if it does anything at all. Heres a quick, and dirty test to show you: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm.

As for the rest WTF?, and tumbles in flight, and acurite to a thousand yards do not go in the same sentence.

I think a few of you are misunderstanding me, I'm trying to find some way to seal, or plug the tip to turn it into an FMJ, or find some other way to squeeze an extra 2 inches of penetration out of it, NOT trying to find a way to make it expand, I like it's performance just fine the way it is now, I just want more penetration, if I wanted expansion I'de just get SS197.
 

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SMC, no to be an ass, if you understood how the 195 ammo works, you would know that the "hollow point" has no effect on the terminal performance. The 195 is made to simply tumble, thats it. nothing else.
I posted the article just for your information :?
Fackler, and his 12", should not be taken as religion.
 

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5.7 ammo

Man, some of you guys are flat hostile! Small arms collector- Short of reloading the round you have with a better powder load I don't see a way of making it any faster. I agree with you that a little more peeitration is desired but I think ATF had that in mind when they stuck us with the ammunition restrictions. There is a guy on this forum that reloads the AP ammo and sells it here. I apologize that I don't remember his name, maybe shipwreak can help us out. tgr934x4- buddy i don't care how much training you have, you cannot say that a good chest hit, throat hit or even a head hit will always put something do with one, two, or even three rounds. The human body can take alot of punishment, yes even a 50cal. You may plan on hitting someone in the throat but at night, with the adrenilyn pumping and a moving target. Sorry but tangos move and shoot too.
 
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