[TexasRifleman]

What's the deal? What is the bullet design?

Is it basically the same as AP for the 5.56?

I'm just curious really.

 

[ShipWreck]

It probably wouldn't be banned if it was just the PS90 - but the fact that a handgun can shoot the round is probably what has it banned.

 

[tqtran]

What's the deal?

It is currently LEO only and can only be purchased by a department or agency direct from FN.

What is the bullet design?

FMJ, small front hollow cavity, steel cap, aluminum core

Is it basically the same as AP for the 5.56?

Basically but aluminum core instead of lead for half the weight

SS190

 

[member548]

Ammo

I thought any .22 bullet and under, no matter what fired it, or what it was made of wasn't considered AP by the ATF. I just thought FN just restricted their own ammo sales to help cool down bad press.

But I'm in no way sure of that.

It's silly anyway, what thug is going to buy a pistol the cost of a FiveSeven anyway?

(edited to fix my mess up)
[Edited by admin]

 

[tqtran]

Re: Ammo

I thought any .22 bullet and under, no matter what fired it, or what it was made of was considered AP by the ATF.

I think you might want to edit your statement there. From what you said, a .22lr is AP :lol:

 

[wildeye111]

Re: Ammo

You are now correct member548 about your understanding of AP and the policy FN set by them to not sell their ss190, ss191 and of course the ss193.

AP law is not set by the BATF but by the Gun Control Act of 68'. The BATF enforces this law. Here is the "AP" part copied from this act:


The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

ANY .22 caliber or smaller is NOT "AP" due to the definition set forth by the GCA of 68' as describe above. The 5.7x28 projectile is in fact a .224 diameter projectile which is a .22 caliber bullet -therefore this caliber or smaller is NOT DEFINED OR CONSIDERED ARMOR PIERCING by the Federal Goverment.


In fact the projectile of the SS190 is an offspring of the SS109 projectile, here is a link for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7_x_28_mm (specifically the SS190 Duty Round paragraph)

FN designed the NATO standard SS109 in the 70's and later used this same concept (after discontiuning the ss90 round) of a projectile for the 5.7x28mm round, they only changed the lead core to aluminum, the jacket from copper to steel and the name from SS109 to SS190. After receiving bad publicity around 2002 due to the Brady Campaign for the SS192, FN decided to use public ignorance of "AP" as the reason to stop sales to civilians. Think about this for a minute......- a .22 caliber 55 grain lead core bullet going slower than the speed of sound is in NO WAY EVER considered AP, yet FN restricted what they call their SS193- AP sub sonic round.

I thought any .22 bullet and under, no matter what fired it, or what it was made of wasn't considered AP by the ATF. I just thought FN just restricted their own ammo sales to help cool down bad press.

But I'm in no way sure of that.

It's silly anyway, what thug is going to buy a pistol the cost of a FiveSeven anyway?

(edited to fix my mess up)
[Edited by admin]

 

[Frangible]

I've been kicking around the idea of picking up a P90 (I guess I watched too much Stargate... heh) and I was wondering about the ammo situation here, with getting SS190 instead of the civvie stuff.

Legally, you can truly get anything, including new production full autos, if you're a class III dealer (which is very difficult/expensive, but possible).

Anyway, going back to what you cited:

"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Wikipedia says: "The SS190 bullet has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core."

1. It does not seem to violate part (i) as the core is aluminum, not iron? Is that right?
2. It does not seem to violate part (ii) as it's not greater than .22 caliber. Or is it? 5.7mm = .224". Is the definition here .2200000000"? I don't understand the definition of "larger than .22 caliber".

If it's just a case of FN trying to be politically correct... that would mean without any paperwork or class III stuff you could legally load your own SS190 rounds, or a 3rd party manufacturer could make them, right?

Anyone want to contact the ATF and check for sure? I guess I could

 

[mk23]

Yeah, if it doesn't fit the AP definition, then a 3rd party could make it. If they do, they can choose the components so it's stays away from the AP classification... They could copy the SS109, but just lighter.

 

[abpt1]

right above that is

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

the ss190 is not different at all because it is the same as 5.56 SS109 and M855 :roll: :idea: :arrow:

 

[mk23]

right above that is

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

the ss190 is not different at all because it is the same as 5.56 SS109 and M855 :roll: :idea: :arrow:

Yeah, it's the same diameter bullet. I use 55 FMJBT for my subsonic reloads.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/ap_ammo.txt

 

[wildeye111]

I am a 3rd party Mfg. I obtained my Type 06 FFL specificaly to Mfg. projectiles for use with the 5.7 round. Reference: http://ps90forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=128
I was interviewed by my local BATF and had to provide samples as well as showing how and what I was planning on Mfg. They verified that my projectiles where not in violation of any federal regualation. However, each state has their own "AP"/Ammuniton laws that you need to verify and make sure that you are in compliance with if you plan on using/loading your own rounds using the SS109.

I've been kicking around the idea of picking up a P90 (I guess I watched too much Stargate... heh) and I was wondering about the ammo situation here, with getting SS190 instead of the civvie stuff.

Legally, you can truly get anything, including new production full autos, if you're a class III dealer (which is very difficult/expensive, but possible).

Anyway, going back to what you cited:

"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Wikipedia says: "The SS190 bullet has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core."

1. It does not seem to violate part (i) as the core is aluminum, not iron? Is that right?
2. It does not seem to violate part (ii) as it's not greater than .22 caliber. Or is it? 5.7mm = .224". Is the definition here .2200000000"? I don't understand the definition of "larger than .22 caliber".

If it's just a case of FN trying to be politically correct... that would mean without any paperwork or class III stuff you could legally load your own SS190 rounds, or a 3rd party manufacturer could make them, right?

Anyone want to contact the ATF and check for sure? I guess I could

 

[mk23]

So is the SS190 that trickles down the chain legal for civies to buy?

I have seen it at some gun shows before with no purchasing restrictions. Just VERY expensive.

 

[HK SD9 Tactical]

2. It does not seem to violate part (ii) as it's not greater than .22 caliber. Or is it? 5.7mm = .224". Is the definition here .2200000000"? I don't understand the definition of "larger than .22 caliber".

If the law on the books states .22 caliber and not .220000 caliber, it means all the way up to .229999999999999 caliber is considered .22 caliber. The next higher caliber .25 caliber would cover .250000000 thru .25999999999 caliber. However, there was a .23 caliber produced in the early 1900's but I do not think that a .23 caliber is manufactured anymore. I may be wrong (probably am) but looking through most laws on the books, they read as .23 caliber and higher when identifying a round that is larger than .22 caliber.

Do a google search on .23 caliber and you'll see some of the laws that refer for calibers larger than .22

 

[Mark Ducati]

Seems to me one could simply get a good kinetic hammer, pull the 5.7x28 bullets out and then reload them with 62gr SS109 (5.56x45) from the M16/AR15 round?

 

[tqtran]

If you want to make a subsonic round then yes. 62gr is pretty heavy so it wouldn't go supersonic.
I remember a thread somewhere here talking about what you are suggesting but I refuse to see the "search button" :lol: so I am not going to even suggest that. I would say ask wildeye111 or MO for confirmation since they are the resident experts on reloading.

 

[Orbital]

Re: Ammo

I thought any .22 bullet and under, no matter what fired it, or what it was made of was considered AP by the ATF.

I think you might want to edit your statement there. From what you said, a .22lr is AP :lol:

it is to freaks like Sarah Brady...