[DavidC]

I have just received my 17s handl lower back from Handl. I had a geissele super scar trigger installed in it and had my original LPK into it. The trigger appears to have an incredibly heavy weight pull (i'm estimating around 10 pound 2nd stage compared to the geissele trigger in my AR which has around 3.5 lb 2nd stage). I am guessing this is on account of the very minor differences between the handl lower and the stock lower. I asked handl inc. about this and their response is as follows:

"As far as the giessele trigger goes Im sorry im not quite sure what your referring to. We've installed dozens of his triggers and everything works out great. If it is a little heavy it is possible that there is tolerance stacking there since both of our parts are such high precision. You can do the sand paper trick right under the front of the trigger. There are a few things that come into play there. However your trigger was functioning 100% when it left here since we test fired your lower to function test."

My question is: does anyone else have this problem (with trigger pull on handl)? More importantly, any suggestions on how to tune a Super Scar trigger to lighten it significantly? I will emphasize: the trigger DOES function. It just hits the 2nd stage and requires relatively monumental pull to actuate.

Thanks!
Dave

 

[ShootingSight]

Do not do the 'sandpaper trick', I'm confident the trigger does not need tuning, and he has his head stuck where the sun don't shine for suggesting so. The sandpaper trick controls sear engagement, not second stage pressure, so he is simply ignorant on how the trigger works. You have another issue where something is binding. I'd guess it's something like the tab for the safety that is rubbing on the slot in the safety selector. Dunno the Handl stuff - but if his wall thicknesses are different from stock, the safety shaft might be slightly to the side versus stock, so the edge of the tab on the trigger is just catching the slot in the safety.

It could be binding somewhere else - but that would be the first guess.

And no, you do not have worse stackup problems with high tolerance parts, that is smoke he is blowing up your skirt. Stackup is when you have a bunch of parts, and each has a tolerance, and usually if one part is fat, chances are another part will be thin, so your system tolerance hovers closer to the middle (mathematically it's a question of variance versus standard deviation). You get into trouble when both parts are fat at the same time. That's stackup.

If any one of your parts has a higher tolerance, that means the extreme of fat or thin are reduced, and all your parts will run closer to the center. That will never make your stackup worse as long as your part design has not changed.

Try taking the safety out completely and see if that solves the problem. If it does, look at it closely to see if you can tell where it is rubbing.

 

[Battlerifleman]

Did you use the factory grip screw? My Geissele had a screw in the packaging and the instructions didn't mention that it replaces the factory grip screw. It will rub on the trigger, making it really stiff. Replace the factory grip screw with the one from Geissele and you should be good to go. That's what happened to me with the factory lower.

Maybe the Handl grip screw depth is different. Just check to see if the screw is rubbing.

 

[BigBuckeyeGuy]

Imagine this-another Handl issue....

 

[ShootingSight]

Didn't you read the reply? According to Handl is it specifically NOT a Handl issue. Unless it's because their parts are so good that other parts no longer function correctly in the presence of such perfection.

I don't get it. Machining a lower out of aluminum is not rocket science. At least not if you own the mill, so you can make one, check it, correct it, make another, etc. Now, if you do not own the mill, so you design it and make a run of 100 parts before you get to check one, I can understand that things will get slow and expensive.

 

[RHINOWSO]

As mentioned, ensure you are using Geiselles grip screw.

Other than that, Handl says its perfect, so I guess it is... :roll:

 

[Battlerifleman]

High precision tolerance is meaningless if the spec is wrong. Anything can meet a bad spec, that doesn't ensure function. That's the beauty of making something yourself, you get to create the spec. I have never* changed a spec so that an overlimit production run can pass. Damn I am good, everything is in tolerance.

Anyone who has installed a Geissele in a SCAR before should ask about the screw rubbing before telling you to alter parts.




*Note Higher authority always approved spec changes, in fact they usually suggested it as opposed to failing a run. It is a common practice. Science! Smooth the data and remove graph references. Meaningless perfection.

 

[ShootingSight]

Dunno about the grip screw issue. That projects into the lower behind the pivot pin, so I thought a grip screw problem was when the screw did not let the trigger return full forward, and the symptom was an improper reset. This sounds like a different problem.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Dunno about the grip screw issue. That projects into the lower behind the pivot pin, so I thought a grip screw problem was when the screw did not let the trigger return full forward, and the symptom was an improper reset. This sounds like a different problem.

I agree but it's worth checking, who knows what the Handl grip screw tolerances are?

On the OEM lower with Geissele and stock grip screw I had reset and IIRC safety engagement issues.

 

[DavidC]

Guys, every response here is so helpful. Thank you for the tips. I will try the grip screw first then if that doesn't address the issue, safety removal. Will report back. Thank you again for awesome advice.

I left the other issue I was having off the thread: handl lower will not seat into backplate without a whack from a hammer and wooden dowel. "Stacked tolerance" I suppose (rolls eyes).

 

[ShootingSight]

You need a precision hammer! Sheeesh.

Test the grip screw just by backing it out a few turns. Rhino hit the nail on the head. If the grip screw is too long, it lifts the tail of the trigger. Since the safety works by holding the tail down, it the grip screw is too long, the back of the trigger is not low enough to allow the safety to engage.

 

[KameronTKelly]

I would normally suggest you send that back to the manufacturer however, most folks that have done that end up with no lower and no refund for months if not indefinitely. The end user is always to blame for this. Alan used to send people here to speak for his product but after a dozen or so folks had major problems and posts them... He just gave up and left (leaving the blame to the installer) it's sad really. The advise you have gotten is good hopefully it will work out for you. Please keep us posted.

oh and the grip screw problem normally stops the weapon from firing at all, as in you can't pull the trigger but half way. (/\ as they have already explained)

 

[RHINOWSO]

From reviews posted, the need to whack a Handl into the backplate is common.

Let us know if the grip screw fixes it.

Handl and Molon Labe Industries run under the same business model, which is "over promise, under deliver, when in doubt shift blame to others, never take responsibility, fail to communicate, and get as much money as you can by any means possible."

 

[DavidC]

OK - you guys are fn geniuses (pun intended). I backed out the grip screw a few turns (i have a hogue grip & screw it came with in there) et voila! The trigger snaps crisply as expected! I'd estimate it to be slightly heavier pull than my AR's geissele SSA, but it NIGHT AND DAY from this morning. A sincere THANK YOU for your tips. I'm so glad this didn't end up with a bad ending, like having to revert back to the factory lower. Awesome guys, thanks again.

 

[SONYtec]

We are the fo shizzle... FNForum.net ROCKS!!! :shock:

 

[andyman]

Ok on my hadl and giessel trigger the problem turned out to be the clearance between the selector and the trigger when in the firing single shot mode. It seems like with the hadl there is a .001 - 0.002 clearance problem. Could be slightly more but I have no way of measuring. No body will recommend this to you due to liability reasons but the only way to fix it on my setup (i'm sure it would be the same for everyone else) is to take a dremel out with a cut off disk and grind away a little bit of material where the trigger hits the selector in single shot mode. Get a flash light and try to squeeze the trigger and see where the trigger hits and stops. Thats the material you need to remove. In my opinion, its perfectly save to file it here. It will not affect the sear so you won't go into auto mode, it will not affect the safety since your already in fire mode and even if you cut off more material, it will not affect the shooting of the weapon. You will have to modify a part on your SCAR. I just did this , the mod took less then 2 minutes. The trigger works the same as on the original SCAR, and I get to use AR10 mags. I love the trigger, makes a huge difference.

 

[andyman]

Image of mod attached. Can't say I never gave anything back to this forum. Do this at your own risk, I just showed you what I did. If you have to ask any further questions, you should probably take your gun to a gunsmith. I know HANDL has its issues but for a company to make their CNC lower available I'm ok with the problems. Nothing a little time on my mill + dremel time can't solve.

 

[the beav]

For $400 you shouldnt need to modifiy, hit it with a hammer or any other bullsh!t. Ill just wait for a SS lower.

 

[BigBuckeyeGuy]

Agreed....that product is a piece.....

 

[bhunter78]

I am new to the the forum as well as this particular weapon platform but find the rifle to function very well with only a geissell trigger upgrade. Why is it that anyone would want to install the HANDL lower with what seems to be numerous reliability complaints, other than the monetary savings per magazine. For the price of the lower one can purchase 10 full priced FN magazines, why not just do that instead. I can hardly see needing or wanting to carry more than 10 mags whatever the situation be it zombie apocalypse, the second coming or WW III. If I am missing something please enlighten me.