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They are dumb-downed versions like what we sold the Saudis, Israel and the UAE. First and second gen stuff. None of the technological advancements that make them deadly. The ownership for these countries is more as a show of them having technologically advanced equipment as a deterrent to other countries. There is a law somewhere about them selling our advanced equipment to other nations. Not that it would deter our Government from doing something shady.
 

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They are dumb-downed versions like what we sold the Saudis, Israel and the UAE. First and second gen stuff. None of the technological advancements that make them deadly. The ownership for these countries is more as a show of them having technologically advanced equipment as a deterrent to other countries. There is a law somewhere about them selling our advanced equipment to other nations. Not that it would deter our Government from doing something shady.
Actually US did sell a number of Longbows to Saudi Arabia couple of years back. Saudi Arabia ? AH-64D APACHE Longbow Helicopters | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
 

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What you posted was the request of sale from the Saudis that was denied. They were sold the export versions. The law forbids weapons technology listed under the MCTR annex to be sold to foreign countries. The Apache program is
covered under the MCTR annex.

From your link.

Apache.JPG

The Law
arms.JPG
Thw Law.JPG

Besides, the military chose the Apache E - Guardian model over the D upgrade. the E is based off the D, but parts of the reconfiguration is still classified.
 

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No, the sale was approved:
36 AH-6i and 70 Apaches approved for Saudi Arabia | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
AH64D block III is the Apache Guardian.

Boeing's own site for longbow lists SA as an user. Also SA got the targeting system off of Guardian as well:
LONGBOW LLC Receives $90 Million Contract for Saudi Arabia Apache Radar Systems · Lockheed Martin

The law you listed specifically apply to United States Persons, not the United States government. Sub chapter 2 of the same section specifically permits sales of weapons to foreign military including missile and guidance technologies. Actually 2797A gives POTUS the power to effectively override this particular limitation even for an individual sale as long as it's justified to Congress.
 

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Does it really matter. F16s to Egypt, Apache's to Iraq, and the list goes on and on. Personally, I think that the US should charge $10,000,000,000.00 per copy and that way, 50 copies should replenish the war chest that was borrowed from. Of course, if Congress got a hold of that money, they would just spend it on something else instead of buying down the debt.

As far as the Israelis are concerned, no matter what we sell them, they gut them and make them better than what we have.
 

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No, the sale was approved:
36 AH-6i and 70 Apaches approved for Saudi Arabia | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
AH64D block III is the Apache Guardian.

Boeing's own site for longbow lists SA as an user. Also SA got the targeting system off of Guardian as well:
LONGBOW LLC Receives $90 Million Contract for Saudi Arabia Apache Radar Systems · Lockheed Martin

The law you listed specifically apply to United States Persons, not the United States government. Sub chapter 2 of the same section specifically permits sales of weapons to foreign military including missile and guidance technologies. Actually 2797A gives POTUS the power to effectively override this particular limitation even for an individual sale as long as it's justified to Congress.
Persons does cover Boeing, Longbow LLC. Governemnt sales to a foreign country must still be approved by Congress, and they are still governed by the law. What does the President overriding the sale have anything to do with it? This sale was not overridden. Saudia Arabia is listed as a user because they have had the A model since 92, and the FCR since 2008.


You didn't read what you posted. You need to read it again. You posted the same request , not the contract. If you read what you posted, you will see at the bottom the request for the Block 3 APACHES was denied.
The US Government approved the sale of the D model and not the D model-Block 3. The D model does include FCR technology from Longbow LLC, but FCR technology from Longbow LLC is not scheduled on the MCTR annex.

Your posted the same request tjat you did in your previous post.

Apache.JPG
 

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HK SD9 Tactical

Just an easy way for the intelligence community to get people in country and keep an eye on what they are doing.

The US Government always sneaks these in there. Why would Boeing need 35 US Government personnel to work on their contract?

Intelligence Needs.JPG
 

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Good thing we didn't sell em our badass, the AH1Z! lol :D

So, was an exception made for UK, or do they have the old crappier apaches too?

I know Israel and Turkey were working together on the KA-50 and giving it state of the art Western electronics, no idea what happened with it.
http://www.aviastar.org/foto/ka-50-2-s.gif

not as sexy as the original Ka-50, but still nice. The Hokum gives me wood everytime i look at it though.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Ka-50_NTW_7_8_93.jpg
 

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The UK has the D model that is made by Westland and not Boeing. Like HK SD9 said, the foreign countries try to make them better.

Westland put a more powerful Rolls-Royce engine in it that doesn't have problems in low oxygen environments like the mountain ranges in Afghanistan.
 

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Persons does cover Boeing, Longbow LLC. Governemnt sales to a foreign country must still be approved by Congress, and they are still governed by the law. What does the President overriding the sale have anything to do with it? This sale was not overridden. Saudia Arabia is listed as a user because they have had the A model since 92, and the FCR since 2008.
It was approved by Congress (see the link I posted). And no the president does not override the sale but allow to override the restriction of arms sales on individuals or commercial company. It's relevant because it shows that government has the authority to bypass the law you listed. SA is listed specifically as an user of AH64D Longbow, not just the AH64A. Boeing: AH-64 Apache


You didn't read what you posted. You need to read it again. You posted the same request , not the contract. If you read what you posted, you will see at the bottom the request for the Block 3 APACHES was denied.
The US Government approved the sale of the D model and not the D model-Block 3. The D model does include FCR technology from Longbow LLC, but FCR technology from Longbow LLC is not scheduled on the MCTR annex.
Actually you are the one who need to read it again, in its entirety. The link I posted is a 2012 update to the 2010 request. It clearly states:
A press statement from Boeing given below confirms that the Apache and AH-6i aspect of this request has been approved, and we await statements from Sikorsky and MD Helicopters on the other two types:-
Boeing Source
Boeing said:
The U.S. government has also offered the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia 70 new AH-64 Apache strike helicopters and 36 AH-6i helicopters, plus support and training.
I already posted several sources supporting the fact that the sales of Longbow was approved. You have yet listed a single link supporting the claim that it was denied.
 

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These birds are nothing without spare parts and the ability (read training) to properly maintain them. Look at the condition of all of the third world air forces in general that don't maintain their fleets... Most are canibalizing other aircraft and their ability to train is pretty much nonexistent.
 

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These birds are nothing without spare parts and the ability (read training) to properly maintain them. Look at the condition of all of the third world air forces in general that don't maintain their fleets... Most are canibalizing other aircraft and their ability to train is pretty much nonexistent.
According to the article, the sale includes parts, support and training. What I would be concerned about is the personnel's ability to absorb those information and put them into practice. Plus anybody who have former military aviation training in Iraq are likely Sunnis, whom Maliki's government probably won't allow near those Apaches.
 

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Parts can experience delays in shipping and contractors can be sent home. Also, most (not all) of these countries reserve their high dollar fleets as play things of the rich and privileged instead of putting the more capable, yet poor and socially low class pilots at the stick.

All you need to do is look at the F-14's we sold to Iran back in the days when rocks were heavy... These Apaches will fly only as long as we keep shipping parts and providing maintainers, give or take a year or so. After that, they will be nothing more than cruise missile sponges for when we go into Iraq for round three.
 

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It was approved by Congress (see the link I posted). And no the president does not override the sale but allow to override the restriction of arms sales on individuals or commercial company. It's relevant because it shows that government has the authority to bypass the law you listed. SA is listed specifically as an user of AH64D Longbow, not just the AH64A. Boeing: AH-64 Apache



Actually you are the one who need to read it again, in its entirety. The link I posted is a 2012 update to the 2010 request. It clearly states:

Boeing Source


I already posted several sources supporting the fact that the sales of Longbow was approved. You have yet listed a single link supporting the claim that it was denied.
I never said that Longbow wasn't approved. That is something you are adding that detracts from the facts. That and the thing about the President which has no relevant point to this
discussion. The President didn't override Congress for this sale, so I have no idea why you bring these points up. The Saudis have had the Ah-64D Longbow since 2008.

I said that the sale of the AH-64D Block 3 configuration was denied and the export models approved. You can read that on Boeing's website yourself under the D model Block 1 Lot 1 configuration.
Since you didn't read what you posted as far as the Boeing source I will post it for you.

This is YOUR source and YOUR post under your Boeing Source link. Circle and repost for me any of what you posted that shows the AH-64D Block 3 configuration was sold to Saudi Arabia.

Boeing release.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #18
U.S. citizens are denied access to post 1986 automatic small arms , while Middle Eastern flip-flopping regimes are granted access to U.S. made heavy modern military weapon systems. What is wrong with this picture? It is a sad state of affairs.
 

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It's not like most of the attackers on 9/11 were Saudi's...oh wait...At least they weren't financed by Saudi's...oh wait...The ring leader wasn't a Saudi...oh wait...We didn't provide materiel and support to these mujahideen fighters in Afghanistan and Syria...oh wait...
 

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U.S. citizens are denied access to post 1986 automatic small arms , while Middle Eastern flip-flopping regimes are granted access to U.S. made heavy modern military weapon systems. What is wrong with this picture? It is a sad state of affairs.

Money, and/or oil.
 
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