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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
We all know the 5.7 ss198 is very questionable at defeating 3A Body Armor very rarely does! Here is 9mm which outperforms the ss198 and beats 3A also finally here is a test with some surplus Bulgarian 7.62x25 which doesn't have a steel core and it beats 3A very easily!

The wound cavities of both the 9mm & X25 easily put any 5.7 ammo to shame!

If Mac could get some Czech M-48 he would really be surprised, the way he is talking clearly shows and he even says he doesn't know much about the X25 then falsely states the Bulg is 95 gr when in reality it is only a 85 gr bullet, but as I always have said certain types of 65 yr old x 25 will defeat 3A extremely easy!

The new 9mm liberty ammo basically makes carrying a 5.7 useless if 1 is wanting to defeat 3A, I will have to get some for my M-9 as well as my PF-9!

https://www.full30.com/video/bb4bb9aff53dc8d0be5718c7982bf55b

So why would 1 carry any 5.7 for self defense or anything but like me Target shooting?????????????????

So now I need to get some Liberty 9mm and I will not be buying any SS190!!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Avg price of this Liberty ammo is $17.97 for 20 rounds! Great price!
 
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I didn't know ss198 struggled with 3a armor so support that argument with proof.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I didn't know ss198 struggled with 3a armor so support that argument with proof.
Quite severely, check out some vids even Buffman had tested it and it did not defeat 3A but another time he did manage to have some penetrate, so basically the feeling about SS198 VS 3A is sometimes yes but mainly no!
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Here is just 1 there are dozens more showing how useless ss198 is against 3A
 
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There are select 5.7x28mm rounds that will penetrate IIIA and cause bigger wounds than the Liberty 9mm.

You have just not tested them, nor seen them tested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
There are select 5.7x28mm rounds that will penetrate IIIA and cause bigger wounds than the Liberty 9mm.

You have just not tested them, nor seen them tested.
Ur talking Apples & Oranges!

Elite Ammo stuff yes know all about it! There also is restricted 9mm that will do even more damage! But the Elite ammo is questionable and voids warranty! This is simple 9mm ammo but sadly I wonder how long before it is called cop-killer and banned!

I have always said the X25 M-48 is every bit as good as ss190 and this liberty does more damage and wound channel is larger than any 5.7 and most likely meets the ss190, cant wait to get some of the Liberty!

Many have always touted the 5.7 as being overly rated and this proves it! But I always liked the 5.7 for target shooting and that's about it!
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The Liberty ammo is avail in .380, 9mm, .40 and in 45 cal.
 
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Ur talking Apples & Oranges!

Elite Ammo stuff yes know all about it! There also is restricted 9mm that will do even more damage! But the Elite ammo is questionable and voids warranty! This is simple 9mm ammo but sadly I wonder how long before it is called cop-killer and banned!

I have always said the X25 M-48 is every bit as good as ss190 and this liberty does more damage and wound channel is larger than any 5.7 and most likely meets the ss190, cant wait to get some of the Liberty!

Many have always touted the 5.7 as being overly rated and this proves it! But I always liked the 5.7 for target shooting and that's about it!
You compare 9mm to 5.7x28mm

and when I compare 5.7x28mm to 5.7x28mm you tell me I'm comparing apples to oranges.

FYI Liberty 9mm can also be seen as non-factory ammunition and thus void your warranty.

Although, who cares about warranty when FN's customer service, isn't.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well unlike Elite Ammo with this 9mm u don't need to change springs etc it simply is a like a +P also the 9mm is about .85 cents a round where the Elite is 6X+ that price, however the X25 Bulg Tok ammo is bad for having duds etc.. also the SS190 same as Elite is 6x+ more in price if it can be found!

This Liberty is 1 of the biggest events in defeating Body Armor, no longer will I have to carry my CZ-52 or Tok with steel core X 25 ammo but simply use the Liberty even in my Keltec PF-9 and know it will defeat any 3A Armor if needed since a lot of Perps do wear BA.

I can though fully understand why Cops are worried since most wear only 2A and after the attempted M855 ban surely this may be next!
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The thing which surprised Mac as well as me was as to how bad the Scorpion pistol did with the ammo since it has almost 2x the barrel length of the pistol and 1 would have expected 2x the damage, but in reality it seemed less than 1/2 that of the pistol!

Very strange indeed!
 
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This is my take on the "armor penetrating" definitions:
3A or less is not armor. From pistols, 2,2A,and 3A are bullet RESISTANT. They are not bullet PROOF.

Anything less than a proper level 3 armor should NOT be called armor.

But even then, some pistol calibers are powerful enough to work through level 3

The Constitution says nothing about arms needing to be limited due to armor penetration.
That therefore makes the GCA or Hughes Amendment (whichever one installed the ban on AP) unconstitutional.
 

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The thing which surprised Mac as well as me was as to how bad the Scorpion pistol did with the ammo since it has almost 2x the barrel length of the pistol and 1 would have expected 2x the damage, but in reality it seemed less than 1/2 that of the pistol!

Very strange indeed!
Well, there is a bit more to it than just barrel length doubling damage.

Acceleration, or in this case, the gases from the igniting powder propelling the projectile down the barrel, is a square function.
To further complicate the issue, the igniting powder as it burns does not provide constant pressure throughout the entire time the projectile is being pushed down the barrel.
What is happening is the pressure behind the projectile is dropping exponentially and at such a rate that the energy gained from the longer barrel is being negated by the rate of how fast the pressure is dropping as the powder is burning.
This can be corrected by choosing a powder with a different burn rate but that is a whole other topic.

Another monkey wrench thrown into the works: friction decelerates the projectile. The projectile must grip rifling to get their twist and that friction erases some of the energy that could have been gained at the muzzle.
And if the pressure from the powder burn drops below the forces caused by this friction, the projectile actually loses velocity and therefore loses ME from a longer barrel.

I assume the MAC and CZ in this case are both firing the exact same ammo with exact same projectile weights.
That would mean their projectile designs do not differ and in this comparison, the difference in the damage they cause in their terminal ballistic performance is dictated solely by the energy they have during the time they impact and transfer it to the target.

The bottom line is a longer barrel doesn't always mean more MV and ME, which is critical to what the round does down range when it impacts the target.
And assuming exact same projectile weights and design, energy dictates if it will be able to penetrate armor of any level of if it will even have any energy to transfer to a soft target (ie "cause damage" ).
 

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So the 9mm can go through 1 IIIA panel, but how about 2 or 3 panels? How about hard plate IIIA? How about the SDS helmet?

SS190 penetrate 2 IIIA panels, and an entire block of clay.


The take away; how will the bullet perform once it penetrates the vest. The gel tests of the Liberty ammo show shallow penetration effects just like G2 RIP. It does have velocity on it's side to help possibly turn TWC into wounding.

Kind of looks like I should test this Liberty ammo :D, just need $$ and time..
 

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Well unlike Elite Ammo with this 9mm u don't need to change springs etc it simply is a like a +P also the 9mm is about .85 cents a round where the Elite is 6X+ that price, however the X25 Bulg Tok ammo is bad for having duds etc.. also the SS190 same as Elite is 6x+ more in price if it can be found!

This Liberty is 1 of the biggest events in defeating Body Armor, no longer will I have to carry my CZ-52 or Tok with steel core X 25 ammo but simply use the Liberty even in my Keltec PF-9 and know it will defeat any 3A Armor if needed since a lot of Perps do wear BA.

I can though fully understand why Cops are worried since most wear only 2A and after the attempted M855 ban surely this may be next!
You should really backup your statements, if you want anyone to take them seriously.

As such, I really don't take them seriously.

1. You don't have to change springs to use EA or Liberty. I've used both lines of ammunition. Neither tell you you have to change your springs.
2. EA doesn't cost 6+x of .85 cents. When they had stock in the past, most of their ProtecTOR and other lines were about $1 a round.
3. Most cops wear 2A? Where are your facts? Go to any city PD in any state capital or state trooper and ask them what they wear. It won't be Level II.

I'm done with this discussion as it is a waste of my time.
 
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Many people have cited that most LEO agencies still are using IIA, but have never cited a source. I don't see many manufacturers making IIA anymore, when IIIA is very affordable.. 5yr warrantied life on vests, so I imagine officers are switching out on a regular basis.
 

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And to add........who the hell buys a PISTOL based on being able to penetrate a given body armor??? Are you planning on taking on a SWAT team or some .gov agency? You think you're going to get mugged by the back alley body armor gang?? There has been almost no incidents involving civilian on civilian self defense shootings involving body armor of any type. As a normal joe goes, many of us prepare for some funky SHTF moment but even in those scenarios you're grabbing your armor, your primary SHTF rifle and hunkering down in your place of choice. If you need to penetrate the bad guys use a real rifle cartridge not some sooped up 9mm round. What a goofy topic to choose what gun you should or shouldn't carry. :?:
 

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I can't speak for all police agencies but mine gets vest through grant money. And since there is limited money to buy the vest they will only buy the level 2 vest. However if anyone wants they can pay the difference for a 3A. I will tell you most don't pay for the upgrade. I do! I have always worn 3A even when I had to buy my own vests every 5 years. My idea is if I am going to wear one I want it to stop the most type of rounds it can.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You should really backup your statements, if you want anyone to take them seriously.

As such, I really don't take them seriously.

1. You don't have to change springs to use EA or Liberty. I've used both lines of ammunition. Neither tell you you have to change your springs.
2. EA doesn't cost 6+x of .85 cents. When they had stock in the past, most of their ProtecTOR and other lines were about $1 a round.
3. Most cops wear 2A? Where are your facts? Go to any city PD in any state capital or state trooper and ask them what they wear. It won't be Level II.

I'm done with this discussion as it is a waste of my time.
1) I have never used EA but on the Forum it has been mentioned several X springs in 5.7 should be upgraded with certain types of Elite Ammo!

2) Elite Ammo or SS190 if u can find it will cost a fortune 190 is about $300. for a box and EA about $100.++ for 20. where this Liberty is $17.85 for 20!

3) Mac even says in vid most wear 2A, which acop friend of mine says is what they are issued!
 
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