[andygold]

My friend is a dog handler for a police agency. They were recently given the option of carrying pretty much anything they want with them when on a track. He's a total novice when it comes to long arms and was asking me for my thoughts as to what would be an effective weapon for use when in the woods on a track. The area he patrols is mostly wooded country, with very little urban areas, just some small towns here and there.

He was originally thinking of an AR15(AR10) in .308, but when he saw a PS90 for the first time(mine), he fell in love with it. As much as I'm a proponent for the weapon, I'm not sure if it would be the best for his purposes.

He tells me he's typically "geared up" when on a track, and light weight would be a bonus. I'm assuming that the dog is free running and not leashed (close to him) when working.

Going for the PS90 are...Light weight, compact package, easy to keep on target during multiple shots, and ammo capacity (bolded items he liked the most). I personally am not 100% convinced of the caliber's stopping capacity as most of the stories of it's use are few and far between. I have read a few stories about some one shot stops, but they were purported to be head shots, and that could be done with nearly any realistic caliber. Before I could give him my 100% thumbs up on this weapon, and send him into the woods with my blessing, I'd like to see some more data of actual shootings. For my own purposes though, the weapon fits the bill perfectly.

He thought 200 meters would be a looong shot, but I don't know if that would be the extent of the range that he might take a shot. For law enforcement purposes(not military) I'm assuming anything considered as a longer range would only come into play when being shot at from those ranges. I'm also assuming that in a wooded area (not fields) perps shooting at him would be closer due to trees getting in the way. Yes, open fields would be a different story.

Other weapons I might consider steering him towards were not .308s as that might be "overkill" for his typical scenario, and would be somewhat harder to get follow up shots with for someone who's probably not an experienced marksman with that caliber, as well as the weight of additional ammo and weapon.

The weapons I might suggest would be the mini-14(30) in either .223 or 7.62x39, an AK47 variant, or a AR15 with piston upper and a recoil buffer if needed.

Remember, this guy's only formal training has been with auto pistols and shotguns. I can assure you though that he will take the time to learn/shoot/get good with any rifle he does purchase.

We are going to go to the range in the near future where I will let him shoot my AR and PS90 (Just sold my Mini-14 for money to buy my PS90), to see his preferences as to either.

Any thoughts???!!!???

 

[levi333]

I personally would not feel safe with just a PS-90 in the woods. Would probably use an AR15 variant, .223 would be suitable.

 

[septo]

I guess I am not exactly clear what his weapon requirements are ie most police officers carry a pistol. Is a rifle called for as a dog handler? We have woods here in Virginia and 50 yards is a long shot.

If I had a bunch of stuff to carry, while running to keep up with a tracking dog, and /or cornering a perp, I would be happy with the ps90 with light mounted to it.

If I knew I was facing a dangerous felon, like a prison escape with dog trackers involved, I would want an AR.

It depends on the type of confrontation he is expecting I suppose. Patrol officers carry a pistol because they rarely, if ever, pull their guns. SWAT teams carry AR's because they are pulling their guns as a matter of mission.

 

[M1P90]

If this is LEO then I would suggest the P90 with the armor piercing bullets. Lighter weight and more ammo capacity and MUCH easier to clean!!!!!! GOD!! I hate cleaning my AR-15! as I'm all sure you all do. The P90/PS90 is the ultimate PDW. If you are looking for a long range combat weapon then you have to go with the M14/M1A. :shock: IMHO

 

[andygold]

M1P90...It would be a personally owned weapon, so P90 with SS190 is out.

M1P90...He's looking for "reasonable" weight, so M14/M1A would also be out. My opinion is that .308 is too much bullet and the weapons for that caliber in my opinion would be too much weight for his purposes.

Septo....Yes, most police officers carry a pistol, which he does. He also has a shotgun is his vehicle. I think he's looking at it that he might be on a track possibly by himself with the dog, in the middle of nowhere. He doesn't feel that a handgun is appropriate for that mission. He also doesn't like the idea of a shotgun either. For me, a shotgun with double ought would be nice for close encounters. I think he's looking for more rounds than a typical police scatter gun, with more range and more accuracy. The PS90 seems to fit the bill on his wants, but I'm leaning towards what levi333 says, not really having any extensive proof of the 5.7's stopping capacity.

Has there been any recent, real world feedback of this rounds stopping capabilities? I'd love to give him a total thumbs up, being able to give him some statistics as to stopping power.

Mind you, I'm not a 5.7 basher!!! I own a PS90 myself and love the gun. For me it's a great range gun, and would be/is my and my wife's go to gun in a home invasion scenario. If I got called out to a job in the countryside though, at this point I would take the AR, as I know the round has been extensively proven. i can't with authority say that yet about the 5.7

 

[Texas Armadillo]

If he plans to keep to this kind of work he may want more than one rifle. How much money does he want to spend?

If he is just patroling then the PS90 could be a good choice. Small size, light weight, hi capacity, and choice of optics. Easy to keep on target and if stopping power is a concern... keep pulling the trigger. It should work well for most medium sized animals that may attack his dog and also good against human targets. He is unlikely to engage at long ranges but if he needed to, the gun will reach out to 200 yards without too much drop. More likey he would take cover and call for help if attacked from long ranges. There is nothing that says he can't SBR it either.

If he is tracking a fugitve there are better options. The piston AR you mention is a good choice. The POF's are getting good reviews. I don't have one yet but I'm thinking they are probably easier to clean than a standard AR. The 5.56 has good range and other LEO's he works with will have experience with the weapon also so he can get assistance or advice from them if he needs it. Capacity is good, accessories are easy to find and the gun and ammo are light weight. The M4 version is short too.

Other less conventional options are Lever Action Carbine rifles. An 1873 style in .357 or 45lc with a 16 or 20 barrel and open sights... :?

 

[M1P90]

"My friend is a dog handler for a police agency."

Sorry. From the first line I thought it was LEO purposes. I'd still suggest the PS90 for weight and compactness. I think the ss195 and ss197 have been rated as having good stopping power. I'll have to do a search and see if I can find it. :?

This might help
http://www.ps90forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1585

 

[andygold]

M1P90....it is for LEO purposes, but it's not going to be a departmentally owned weapon. It will be his personal property.

Texas Armadillo....I think he's leaning towards only one rifle. I still can't believe a State Police agency will allow the Troopers to carry what they want, but he says it's going to happen.

A knowledgeable friend suggested an M1 carbine. Cheap, light, small, decent caliber, and made specifically for stopping humans.

Any thoughts?

 

[Iraq Ninja]

M1 carbine- no.

If he doesn't want the PS90, he should get a plain jane M4, but keep it lightweight. Don't throw a bunch of rails and stuff on it. He doesn't need a piston upper. He needs a weapon he can sling and that doesn't get in the way. Weight is a big issue for him. Most cops will also have a Ar15 system, and thus he can use their mags as well. That is why he doesn't need an M1.

My personal work weapon is a M4 style upper with a 16" lightweight Shaw barrel. Cost me about $350 and I added a LMT lower, but any good one will do. He needs to be able to hold it and shoot from his shoulder using only one arm. If it can't pass this simple test, then either it is too heavy (too much stuff on it) or he needs to get in the gym more.

He doesn't need a CQB rifle full of SEAL gear. KISS- keep it simple, stupid

He should wear a armor vest and he can attach a few pouches to carry some mags. Heck, his dog can carry a few as well. If I was doing his job in the woods, I would also wear multicam, and spray paint the rifle as well. He also needs to have a first aid kit, like the VOK that is sold by Tactical Response Gear. He should carry a few extra bandages for his dog as well.

Most importanly, he has to be trained on the weapon, and not just some plinking at the range. He may be operating alone in the woods and needs the skills and mindset training. He may want to get an aimpoint or EOTECH, but only if he can use his iron sights well. Too many people I know can't use their irons, and are addicted to using red dots.

Lastly, he needs to train his dog around gunfire.

 

[Iraq Ninja]

BTW, the M1 carbine is not so cheap these days. I think the only good ammo for it is corbon. The average carbine FMJ is not a well known man stopper. All combat weapons are made to kill humans, and the 5.56 will do it better IMHO that a M1 carbine.

 

[devildoc]

I have to agree with Texas Armadillo, if I am in the woods and am not allowed full auto, I think that a great option would be a lever action trapper however I'd go with a 30-30. The PS90 ,which I really love, is a great PDW for in your face work but If I am on my own running through the sticks I want something with a litte more punch. I've had **** dogs run across a black bear and I'm sorry but a Angry Bear VS PS90 is not a test I'd like bet my life on.
AR's - Hate the mantainence.
Shot gun- Only if you want to risk hitting your dogs.

Just a thought!

 

[andygold]

All great suggestions!!!!

Anyone have any experience with Carbon 15 rifles? Without doing the research on them, I'm guessing that they're probably the lightest ARs around.

 

[M1P90]

I may be ignorant on this but... here goes. If this is for LEO purposes... can he use the ss190 rds? Even though the rifle is for personal protection can he use LEO rds? If so, I'd go with the PS90. Again, I don't know LEO rules. Just a suggestion.

 

[jmz5]

AR-15 in .223, probably the best all around rifle for that situation.

 

[andygold]

I may be ignorant on this but... here goes. If this is for LEO purposes... can he use the ss190 rds? Even though the rifle is for personal protection can he use LEO rds? If so, I'd go with the PS90. Again, I don't know LEO rules. Just a suggestion.

I don't know the answer to this question, but I am going to assume that because it would not be a department weapon, there would be no way to get the SS190 from the bonded warehouses (or whatever they're called),, where they are stored. I'm also going to assume that the only way to get this ammo would be by using a department letterhead/purchase order, and again I'm going to assume that that would be an issue that would bring with it too many questions from up the chain of command.