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Discussion Starter #1
all i see is night force, night force and then there is nightforce. is it because of the price being cheaper then the other scopes. i would like you to look at these other scope and with out price in mind which one would you pick for a scar 17. i need to order one this week.
leupold mark 8 CQBSS 1-8x24 M5B1
schmidt bender pm 1-8x24 short dot
schmidt bender pm2 3-12x50 gen 2
again please dont think about price. i dont mind droping 4 grand on a scope, but on the other hand if a 2000.00 scope will work as well then that is what i will order. thanks you guys very much
 

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Get the Leupold Mk8 1.1-8 H27D :) I would suggest the S&B 1-8 short dot, but they aren't available yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
i just talked to euro optic and they have a mark 8 tmr mil dot in stock, but dont have the cmr-7.62 but midway does have it in stock for a 1000.00 bucks more. night force isnt front focal plane i dont think. is that really important??
 

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There is copious amounts of information on this as to why. All one has to do is do a search on any search engine & read. In a nutshell, NF offers great glass, with great performance, features, weight, & form factors @ better price points than Eurpopean competition mostly due to the EURO dollar conversions to the US Dollar. leupy glass is very good as well & has tended to jump on the higher price bandwagon recently to compete w/ the Europeans. Leupold listened to it's shooter's & responded very well w/ some really good products. Leupy tends to not have the same EURO conversion issues because it's US made. But, it saw that if it raised it's prices it could get the $ because it had a very well established US MIL rep already in place. So in essence, your going to have the same issues on price points w/ Kahles, Steiner, Swarov etc. Whether or not you want Schott glass or Swarov because you feel it's better is your choice. NF's are proven in the Battlefield period. While **** & Bendover is great glass, the price points make it a consideration vs. is it really going to perform any better. It's not, but if you have a D0D budget or are a member of the "Lucky Sperm club" by all means it's your money to spend how you see fit. I used S&B, Leupy & NF on multiple deployments Terra Firma & Oceanic. Both were supplied by my employer. It made no difference to the dead. People would be seriously better served if they purchased good solid glass & trained & shot more. I will also clue people in to this, imo your better served w/ a variable than the Elcan DR. Too many POA / POI index shift's noted in the 1x4 mechanical switch's mechanism for precision shooting / grape / squirter shots.


HTH & as always YMMV...
 

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I can see the logic behind not spending 3K on a scope and spending the cash on training and ammo. But, some people, unlike myself, might be in the position to spend money on all three with no issues. Do I need a Z6i or a MK8 or S&B? Nope. Would I buy one if I had the cash to blow while still being able to afford all my other interests as well as gun/ammo purchases? You bet your ass I would.
 

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Well if you read it it must be true then.
We all took them off & put into our gear boxes.
With all respect, can you provide any details or proof if the supplied Elcans were the old or the new?

Some here are willing to bet they were possibly the old Elcans.

Thank you,
Salt
 

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Thank you for the input.
A lot of us here are on the edge of purchasing Elcans and some others.

It's extremely difficult to find that perfect 16s or 17s glass.
____________


VooDoo6Actual
Industry Professional


Join DateDec 2007Posts4,167Feedback Score33 (100%)​



Originally Posted by shootist~
HOPLOETHOS,

Can you expand on this? Does the shift occur only when the barrel is hot, or is it something else you are seeing?



There are/were a # of reported POA/POI issues w/ Elcan Spector in the 1st & 2nd generation iterations. They may or may not be still out there in the cybersphere currently. The "NET" is being redacted & mucked with by entities so it's hard to say for sure. Do some Google Fu if you desire more validation/affirmation etc.

I purchased a 3rd generation Elcan DR after talking w/ several active SOCOM types, "other" people in the know & one of the principle's who actually helped design the Elcan Spector DR. I was adequantly convinced that the issues had been remedied/rectified/resolved in it's design by the 3rd gen. etc. Unfortunately it has not.

I liked the glass, compactness, reticle, illumination & general attributes of the optic. In shooting my SCAR 17S on many occasions & many different atmospheric conditions I noticed a perceivable change in my shot groups developing.
I was dissapointed & concerned. While it may not matter to others & their standards may be different in all fairness. I zeroed it @ 4x & was pleased w/ the groups I was getting. Better than the "SH" tests yielded in reality. But @ 1x the groups and placement were fugly.

In the end the shot placements I was experiencing were off approx. 1.5" from my POA to POI when flipping from 1x4 or 4x1.
I'm told by those in the know that it is a inherant design gremlin in the switching/flip mechanism of the unit's prism design. Something was mentioned in our initial conversation with the design engineer about the alignment of the prisms' mechanism as it relates to the reticles' index/referrence point that switches from 1x to 4x mode. Seems to be the culprit from my experiences & observations.

I like the Elcan Spector & tried to settle on it's inherant issues. However, in any critical shot placement scenario or even non critical for that matter (i.e. denying concealment/cover, Grape or Hostage(s) ) I do not have confidence that I could make that shot that I typically do have. Here's an example of how FUBAR that can be: In a gunfight/two way range @ a close distance and Tango/Booger Eater is behind concealment or cover. I can see just enough from my position or vectoring slightly. I can take a shot and get a grape shot. BUT I take shot and don't need to so I stay on 1x or forget to flip to 4X where Optic is zeroed. Can't make Grape shot accurately so Tango/Booger eater gets away or lives long enough to give Dirt Knap to me/principle/teammate/others etc. How is that a win ? Epic fail in my book.

The NF 2.5x10x24 has been the panacea for me to those issues & VERY content w/ that glass. Robust, clear, easy to pick up visually, good eye relief, etc. I prefer the variable over fixed so I can get a better visual on Target ID, threat matrix, background etc.
I have & tried NF 1x4 as well but prefer the 2.5x10. You may find you want a Doc Optic/Burris/Leupy RDS for close work etc. As well.
BTW, it's hard to find NF 2.5x10x24 as it's not available on civi market from NF. Active MIL yes, so if not in that club currently the secondary market is the path.

As far as the weight issue it's a non-sequitor for me. NF is 17-19 ozs. Elcan Spector approx. 25-25 ozs. depending on which manual/source you confirm.

Here's a link that is more truth than fiction. I know "FG" & he has always been straight up w/ me. He is a "PI" as well where he lives & we have done some work together in the past. I'm fairly certain it has been linked here before but in case you have not seen it etc.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...Number=1836640

here's a manual below for the 1.5-6x for edification etc.
http://www.eurooptic.com/PDF/Elcan-S...5x6-Manual.pdf

As always YMMV
HTH​


 

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With all respect, can you provide any details or proof if the supplied Elcans were the old or the new?

Some here are willing to bet they were possibly the old Elcans.

Thank you,
Salt


Vortex 1x6 is nice too & supposed to have a new Ret design. I think people wine about too much these days. Guys say that it's heavy but the weapon is listed on some spec sheets @ 7.9 lbs. An LMT L7 is 9.9 lbs. go figure.
 

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Thank you.
I'm still game for an Elcan if I can get past the couple listed below.

16s
New 2014 US Optics SR4c 1-4x ...Aimpoint dot + reticle.
-Possible new candidate for a tough 16s glass.



The Z61 EE 1-6 sounds lighter but has to be tough not just good glass, but is still very tempting.
The rumor was there is a video out there of some guys taking the Z6i 1-6x through the wringer, and dragging it all over.

As for a 17s.
A good 2.5-10x 32 NF sounds very pleasing.
 

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Thank you.
I'm still game for an Elcan if I can get past the couple listed below.

16s
New 2014 US Optics SR4c 1-4x ...Aimpoint dot + reticle.
-Possible new candidate for a tough 16s glass.



The Z61 EE 1-6 sounds lighter but has to be tough not just good glass, but is still very tempting.
The rumor was there is a video out there of some guys taking the Z6i 1-6x through the wringer, and dragging it all over.

As for a 17s.
A good 2.5-10x 32 NF sounds very pleasing.
A couple of things to consider. I have had USO 1x4. Good optic but heavy for it's form factor. I had the "DOE" Ret that was really nice as well. I found w/ .308 I wanted more Mag because of that rounds longer range capability. That is why I opted for a NF 2.5x10x24 & USO 1x8. I had a 32mm but sold it in favor of 24mm. I don't believe the hype about more NEEDING more light. Just didn't see it or need it from my experience. I prefer a lower mount on rail tighter tolerances, less crap that get caught up in doorways, vehicles, helos etc. So I went on my quest for 1x8. Looked @ S&B ($4,000) USO 1x8 SR8s & Leupy 1.1x8 CQBSS about $2400-2700 depending on Ret & hook up). I have shot them all even a March 1x8. I didn't see a justification for the price expense bump vs. lack of quality which is why I went w/ USO 1x8 SRs & liked the FFP on this model. I also just didn't need the "C" model. I felt the "M " model even though more $ was the best of all three but unobtainium for now. I read the articles, reviews, talked w/ some people I needed to & made my decision. I could sell it if I was not satisfied w/ it. That has not been the case for me. My thoughts were why limit myself on Mag 1x4 when I can get a 1x8 & enjoy the intermediate range shots w/ ease, run KAC Offsets as a BUIS & a Micro RDS for CQB. The weight of a 1x4 is already in same league as a 1x8 so I'll take the bump of 4X xtra mag. I'll take that since the weight is already there. The USO 1x8 weighs 22 oz. the NF 2.5x10x24 weighs 17 oz. w/ a fantastic compact form factor @ 9.9". So I run them both & like em both. I still run MRDS on them because at 1.5 ozs it just makes sense. Better FOV for quicker pop up shots than the 1x for me. The Leupy 1.1x8 is a very good optic. For my needs I just didn't see the extra $1,000.00. You can pick up a 1x8 SR8s for $1700.00 if you look & get them to sharpen their pencil. You can pick up NF 24mm for around $1300-1600 depending on Ret / NV / ZS etc. You have to be vigilant but they are still around. I'm not schill for any of them & INSTRUCT this stuff for a living as well. I just haven't seen any aberrations, anomalies, curvature effect, pin cushion etc as always YMMV...

People need to keep things in perspective. Meaning, if the president says something does that make it true ? Do you believe every word he says ?

StealthGhost, are you the same writer that saltpinch quoted above with a post from another forum.
yes.
 

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6 MOA dot @ 1X on the Elcan would make centering on a 1.5 MOA target extremely difficult, if not impossible on the 2 way range while a target is presenting himself from cover. Rarely do bad guys stand still like mannequins and present themselves for any length of time to take that kind of shot.


Interestingly enough, I have a DR 1-4X 7.62 here (not mine) and I have to say, for what it's designed to do, it has the bases covered very well. The glass is on par with my Leupold Mk4's, Mk6's and rivals my PMII, and it's built for heavy use in mind. The MRDS fitted atop along with the rain sight make it a completely redundant combat sighting system.


If my eyes were younger, I would certainly be owning at least one myself just because.

OP is wanting to do the 1-8 optic choice. I humbly suggest forgoing the 1-8 and look to a 3-18X main optic, coupled with an MRDS such as the Aimpoint H1 on a piggyback mount. For the main optic, I would suggest a QD mount such as the ADM RECON.

Why hobble yourself from the onset, right?

-SS
 

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6 MOA dot @ 1X on the Elcan would make centering on a 1.5 MOA target extremely difficult, if not impossible on the 2 way range while a target is presenting himself from cover. Rarely do bad guys stand still like mannequins and present themselves for any length of time to take that kind of shot.


Interestingly enough, I have a DR 1-4X 7.62 here (not mine) and I have to say, for what it's designed to do, it has the bases covered very well. The glass is on par with my Leupold Mk4's, Mk6's and rivals my PMII, and it's built for heavy use in mind. The MRDS fitted atop along with the rain sight make it a completely redundant combat sighting system.


If my eyes were younger, I would certainly be owning at least one myself just because.

OP is wanting to do the 1-8 optic choice. I humbly suggest forgoing the 1-8 and look to a 3-18X main optic, coupled with an MRDS such as the Aimpoint H1 on a piggyback mount. For the main optic, I would suggest a QD mount such as the ADM RECON.

Why hobble yourself from the onset, right?

-SS
Like the Leupy MK6 3-18x with an H1 offset? Drooooooool. :)
 

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Heavy duty conversations here... shat !
I'm good with my Elcan Dr., Yes I'm a simple man.
To the " OP " ... I would buy a couple try them out, sell or use on another war-machine the less favorable optic.
You do have a SCAR back-up weapon or similar platform ?
Glass is such a " personal " thing... anyway's !
 

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I think a Leupy 3x18 w/ is a really good choice & viable as well. I also think 1x4 as I mentioned & was mentioned "Hobbles" the rounds' capabilities & like a Hot Redhead always leaves me wanting for more. I think keeping the door open for SCAR DMR 20" for OP is outstanding option as well. I can tell you this, if your humping .308 & greater 1st round lethality, ability defeat intermediate barriers (read "Mufti"), engage booger eaters from CQB to 800+ yds, were patrolling in austere adaptive environments (i.e. Wadi, MOUNT, Rock formations, vegetative environments or open fields / meadows) that would be the way to fly. I choose NF 2.5x10x24 for those environments as I could engage "Squirter's" w/ MRDS & had Optic on 10X for easy runners or movement behind Murderholes for a reason. It's light, good glass, robust/durable minimal weight, form factor, good Ret choices & ability to engage targets easily at a pretty decent spectrum. The Leupy 3x18 is a fairly recent offering that was not available when I kitted mine up. A Leupy 3x18 w/ 8x Xtra mag would perhaps even be a better choice in all honestly. I would consider that optic over the 1.1x8 CQBSS for the attributes & suffer the pedantic few ozs for pretty much imo, a optimal Assault Scout role SUT's type weapon. I truly feel for a "Assault Scout" SUT's type role which I see as being possibly extremely viable & tons of utility you would be hard pressed to do better.
 
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