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Richie, suppressors might be something you could look into if you are worried about the audible effects of firing weapons without ear pro. Any weapon in my personal arsenal has the ability to take a suppressor. they aren't the end all be all and it does not make the weapon quiet but it doest make the decibel level manageable and the flash reduction is damn near 100%. I have experience with the surefire legacy suppressors as well as the yankee hill LTA 308 suppressor. They are good cans. Surefire is really good stuff, we use the surefire mini at work on our 10 inchers. Seamac addressed adrenaline, if your not use to adrenaline dumps, they can work against you as well.
 

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thoughts? anyone seen action in a real fire fight?...whats the norm...does adrenalin help counteract the muzzle blast?
yes, I also had an IED detonate behind me that I did not hear because I had so much tunnel vision focusing on a det that occurred in front of me. Intermittent tinnitus is the result.
 

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Yup would love to get suppressed. Ive heard them run in 556 and about like a 22 high vel maybe a bit louder. Problem is the owner was a licensed manufacturer of some sort... .forgot exact title but thats the only way to legally own one in my lovely state unfortunately. Been looking at property in a more gun friendly state...one of these years its time to move!
 

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it is my primary rifle.

my ar15's ak47's mosins are backups to the scar17,

if the world has gone so far into the crapper that im toting around a rifle the last thing i want is something that lacks penetration...
My thinking is that forming a group of like-minded comrades will be essential to surviving a SHTF scenario. Loners won't do as well. There is the whole night watch to deal with and it is easier when there is a group where night watch shifts can be rotated. More eyes and more ears... also more firepower and more hands and backs to move things.

But what is the point of survival if you abandon your family? What about children, even if you don't have any of your own, what about the unprotected children and the fairer sex? Are you going to leave them to be killed by predators or starvation? Most of us will try to do the right things when the reality sets in. We will risk our lives to defend others who cannot defend themselves and provide for them. We will become organized much like the Native Americans lived. Old me like me will keep going so that we can pass our knowledge and skill on to the next generations, our joy and legacy will be their survival and success. It really becomes a big picture philosophical thing when you are starving for days trying to find your next meal and knowing many are depending on you.

And trying to act decisively before being overpowered or overrun by less peaceful minded people while trying not to kill anyone who doesn't really need killing. But for those that do, 7.62 is the size for you.

All of this reminds me of how things usually work at the squad level in the military... the ranking sergeant probably has the most training, experience and time in the field. He is likely to be the one who will be most effective with the best weapon the squad has available, usually a SAW (squad automatic weapon). The new guy on the other hand, "the cherry" usually has no real world experience on the field and is untested. He himself is unsure how he will react to a life or death stressful situation and he fears most that he may fail to perform adequately and cost some of his comrades their lives as a result. So how do sergeants generally assign the weapons knowing this? They usually take the lightest to carry rifle for themselves and saddle the cherry with the heaviest. This means old sarge takes an AR at the most and the cherry always is assigned to lug around the SAW. In theory the least combat effective arrangement.

I'm old with a bad back. Likely I will hand my 17 to some younger stronger comrade for him to lug around and I'll carry something else... maybe a 5 pound Bushmaster Carbon 15 or even a Keltec S2000 sub-caliber carbine for around 4 pounds I think... it is not important that I carry my 17 because I will not be alone. What is most important is that someone who is with me is carrying a 17 they would not otherwise have if I did not loan it to them... see how that works?
 
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The Road type of end of the world scenario: 10/22 takedown with scope hands down
Hurricaine Katrina type of short to medium term local disruption scenario: AR/SCAR in 5.56
Home defense scenario: SCAR 17 shorty (or maybe my KSG)

IMO it's really a matter of how long your gun can be kept useful, which is a direct function of how many rounds you can lug around while bugged out and simultaneously carrying a BOB, all without throwing out your back. On the other hand, I do think some people have fantasies about getting into and surviving multiple firefights in hard core SHTF scenarios. I think the more likely truth is that you may be able to survive one or maybe two such fire fights in your post-apocalyptic lifetime. Or you may just die in the first one you ever get into, after expending a few hundred(?) rounds, or less. Hoarding several thousand rounds per caliber for SHTF is less cost-effective IMO than spending money on other preps like food storage, survival equipement or improving your home/bugout environment.
 

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Home defense scenario: SCAR 17 shorty (or maybe my KSG)
I hope you're kidding. Something as unreliable as KSG in SHTF scenario? It's not even good as a blunt weapon when it jams because it'll fall apart after the first hit.
 

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I hope you're kidding. Something as unreliable as KSG in SHTF scenario? It's not even good as a blunt weapon when it jams because it'll fall apart after the first hit.
You must have drunk the MAC koolaid. Do you even have one? Please go ahead and share with us your experience of it 1) jamming and 2) falling apart after hitting something.
 

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You must have drunk the MAC koolaid. Do you even have one? Please go ahead and share with us your experience of it 1) jamming and 2) falling apart after hitting something.
Yes, I had one and my experience of it is that it blows dead donkey d|cks.


FYI MAC isn't the only one with problem, there are plenty of complaints on ktog ranging from sticky pump to cracked rails.
 

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Did you short shuck it like he kept doing? This is the cause of probably 99+% of so-called "jams" that I've seen on youtube. The invariable advice of people on KTog is to..... stop short-shucking; due to the nature of the design the next shell is chambered at the end of the action and requires slightly greater force at that point than other shotguns. As for the rails, 1) people were using vertical foregrips on the slide pic rails which were putting excessive shear pressure on the polymer that the slide was not designed for, and 2) Kel Tec responded to the customers and reinforced this specfic piece and now you can put whatever grip you want on it without further issue.
 

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No I wasn't short stroking it. That's just some bullsh1t excuse ksg owners came up to justify $1k they paid for a $300 POS. Granted the idea of bullpup shotgun with 14 shot capacity is an attractive one (especially for someone living in Commiefornia), hell that's why I brought it in the first place, but it's just too inconsistent and unreliable to own. My shooting buddies love to remind me how much I was hyping up the gun then went 180 degree on it, but you know what I rather be wrong and embarrassed than be stuck with a sh1tty weapon I might have to count my life on. If an experienced shooter like MAC, under controlled range environment, gets tripped up by the weapon, then what happens when someone not so experienced try to use the weapon in an emergency situation?
 
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No I wasn't short stroking it. That's just some bullsh1t excuse ksg owners came up to justify $1k they paid for a $300 POS. Granted the idea of bullpup shotgun with 14 shot capacity is an attractive one (especially for someone living in Commiefornia), hell that's why I brought it in the first place, but it's just too inconsistent and unreliable to own. My shooting buddies love to remind me how much I was hyping up the gun then went 180 degree on it, but you know what I rather be wrong and embarrassed than be stuck with a sh1tty weapon I might have to count my life on. If an experienced shooter like MAC, under controlled range environment, gets tripped up by the weapon, then what happens when someone not so experienced try to use the weapon in an emergency situation?
An experienced shooter doesn't preclude acting clumsily with an unfamiliar weapon. It sounds like you never figured it out either by the way you talk. Why? It's so simple to avoid a jam/misfeed once you understand how the mechanics work. And no it's not some bullsh1t excuse, that you say this clearly indicates you have no idea what you are talking about and possibly even that you have never actually even touched this shotgun before, despite that photo. This is a well-known and well-documented issue where the very end of the slide action has a small bump that requires slightly more force to disengage the shell/slide lock, so that the shucking action has to be strong throughout the duration of motion. You can see that MAC in his video repeatedly failed to do this because he is not used to it. Unfamiliarity with a weapon is not a mark against it. Neither is stupidity despite familiarity.
 

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An experienced shooter doesn't preclude acting clumsily with an unfamiliar weapon. It sounds like you never figured it out either by the way you talk. Why? It's so simple to avoid a jam/misfeed once you understand how the mechanics work. And no it's not some bullsh1t excuse, that you say this clearly indicates you have no idea what you are talking about and possibly even that you have never actually even touched this shotgun before, despite that photo. This is a well-known and well-documented issue where the very end of the slide action has a small bump that requires slightly more force to disengage the shell/slide lock, so that the shucking action has to be strong throughout the duration of motion. You can see that MAC in his video repeatedly failed to do this because he is not used to it. Unfamiliarity with a weapon is not a mark against it. Neither is stupidity despite familiarity.
I suggest you guys stop before someone says something that earns them a time out.
 

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I thought about buying the RFB and KSG, but Keltec does not instill confidence with their manufacturing process, materials allocation, and quality control. So, I went with a SCAR 17 and M1014 without hesitation. If you do a web search on Keltec issues, you better have some serious free time on you hands. As to the OP's question, the SCAR 17 would be my primary rifle because it is accurate, light weight, and has just the right balance between magazine capacity and ballistic coefficient to accomplish most tasks.
 

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.223 or 300 blackout. Or the 5.7...light, accurate & deadly..)
I have a 5.7 pistol and 30rd mags loaded & ready in my bag...I know. Ammo would become a problem...
 

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A subsonic suppressed .300 Blk is on my wish list someday... trading longer range shots for quiet operation in .30 cal seems like a good trade to me... when or if the ammo drought ever subsides... .308 is still cheaper and much more plentiful the Blk and Whisper
 

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Home defense scenario: SCAR 17 shorty (or maybe my KSG)
NO WAY WOULD I EVER CONSIDER A .308 FOR HOME DEFENSE!!! No rifle, but especially a full power cartridge rifle!!! NO WAY!

12 Gauge with heavy shot and pistols only. The reason? I DON'T WANT TO KILL MY NEIGHBORS!!!! A .308 will exit my windows, doors and areas of siding that are not brick and could enter my neighbor's homes the same way with enough velocity to kill them dead! And one of my neighbors is an elementary school. That 12 Gauge shot is not likely to leave my walls with enough energy left to seriously wound anyone.

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IS DOWN RANGE WHEN YOU PULL THAT TRIGGER!!!! Even when fighting for your life and defending your family! YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE!!! And the longer downrange becomes with a full power cartridge, the more you are responsible for! A .308 fired into your ceiling could exit your roof and kill someone a mile away. Even 00 Buck isn't gonna do much after exiting your roof, if it even makes it out.

No, the .308 is for the great outdoors where at least you have a line of sight more than 20' past interior walls in the direction you are shooting. Think about it. Think about how you would feel if you accidentally killed a neighbor/friend. Now realize that being a hero for having killed a dozen child molesting murdering rapists would not make you feel any better about having killed someone that didn't need killing, someone that respected you and was relying on you to be responsible... Keep the Scar's and rifles in your safe and use a pump or semi auto shotgun to defend your home if you need more than a pistol shooting hollow points.
 

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:th_faint: have you tested this shotgun or hollow point bullet theory you are touting and shouting about? Because others have and the research says you are making a mistake.
 

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This thread has caused me to think about a "survival" combination I have never considered before. I'm not a fan of large bore pistols. I'm a 9mm guy. I'd rather have to tap it two or three times with a 9 than completely miss it with a larger bore because I don't shoot enough to maintain proficiency with larger calibers. And that makes me NOT a revolver fan, gimme any size frame Smith M&P with an external safety and I'm at home.

With that said, I have ignored the Governor and Judge .44/.45/.410 massive revolvers as "range bling" in the same catagory as a S&W .500. Big and heavy and of no use to me.

But thinking about actually trying to live off of the land with a Scar 17 got me thinking... you are starving hungry as food has been scarce... many others are depending on you to bring back something for them to eat too... if only you can see a deer, horse, dog, coyote, goat... something to feed people with... but for every one of those you will see a dozen rabbits and a hundred squirrels and many birds on the ground or close by in trees. Yes, a .22 pistol could bag some of those with careful aim... but your hands are shaky, your vision is blurred and you are too tired to die... a .410 revolver with lower pressure light shot rounds would probably bag more small game than a .22 that requires a much more accurate aim... and if you has to use your pistol for self defense, a .410 isn't too shabby... they are just heavy is all, but it would be a hip gun until you needed it.

I'm curious what yall think about them in that kind of context...
 

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:th_faint: have you tested this shotgun or hollow point bullet theory you are touting and shouting about? Because others have and the research says you are making a mistake.
If I lived a mile from my next door neighbor then a rifle would be fine. But I don't, I'm surrounded by a school and dozens and dozens of other homes well within range of a .308 downrange...

You name it and I have probably shot it at one time or another. I'm pretty familiar with what various rounds do to various materials. From shooting old abandoned houses to shooting old junk cars... BTDT, WTF did that round go after it exited here?
 

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If I thought I needed a full power rifle for home defense I would run 12 gauge magnum slugs. They are on par with a 30-06 for destructive power out to say 10-15 yards or so... from close range they go in one side of an old 70's car door, through the side crash guard steel reinforcement and out the other door. They shatter aluminum heads and engine blocks and sometimes chip, crack or even knock a hole in cast iron engine blocks depending on where they hit. They either go through old appliances like refrigerators or they dent and cave the whole side in. And while really good body armor will stop even a 30-06 or 12 gauge slug at close range, if that is why you think you might need a rifle to defend your home, the wearer of the body armor will be downed and out of the fight by the impact force on the armor. Their ribs could even be shattered and they could even bleed out from internal hemorrhaging. Simply put, there are no long range targets inside your home. Now if you are going to shoot through the windows to outside targets, then by all means use a rifle because you can at least see what is downrange unlike not seeing what is beyond the walls you are inside. But most home invasion shootings happen in a room inside a home.
 
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