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If I have to shoot someone inside my home, it means my life or the life of my family is in danger. I'm sorry but in this circumstance I do not care where the bullet goes except that it passes into the intruder. This bullet (or slug or shot) I would like to be as large and as physiologically traumatic as possible. The chance of a stray bullet hitting my neighbor or my neighbor's dog is low. The chance that I will die if I don't put down this intruder is high. It's a no-contest no-brainer for me TBH.
 

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I appreciate your differing philosophy on this matter meatwaggon. I feel you have a hardcore survivor's spirit. You have thought out the scenario and are aware of the consequences. You are okay with sacrificing other innocents for your own survival and believe you can live the rest of your life without something like that haunting your conscious. I'm wired different, I can't. If possible, I will do all I can kill any bassturd who is trying to kill me first. If it is him or me I'm going to make it him. And I will sleep good at night because I probably saved others from being attacked by my attacker. But I will not carelessly risk causing harm to other innocents to protect myself. If I can't take him with minimal risk to other innocents, then I fully accept that it is my day to die, a day that is eventually and inevitably coming to call on all of us no matter what we try to do to deny, avoid or delay it. I will not risk the lives of other innocents to save my own. We do not control whether or not we will die, only how we acted when death took us. I want to go with my dignity and honor because some things are worse than death.

 

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I appreciate your differing philosophy on this matter meatwaggon. I feel you have a hardcore survivor's spirit. You have thought out the scenario and are aware of the consequences. You are okay with sacrificing other innocents for your own survival and believe you can live the rest of your life without something like that haunting your conscious. I'm wired different, I can't. If possible, I will do all I can kill any bassturd who is trying to kill me first. If it is him or me I'm going to make it him. And I will sleep good at night because I probably saved others from being attacked by my attacker. But I will not carelessly risk causing harm to other innocents to protect myself. If I can't take him with minimal risk to other innocents, then I fully accept that it is my day to die, a day that is eventually and inevitably coming to call on all of us no matter what we try to do to deny, avoid or delay it. I will not risk the lives of other innocents to save my own. We do not control whether or not we will die, only how we acted when death took us. I want to go with my dignity and honor because some things are worse than death.

Your melodrama brings a smile to my lips. While you may sleep well at night in the alleged comfort that you will not be putting your neighbors in danger, in fact every time you fire a weapon in your home your round will likely leave your home and possibly penetrate another home. Your beloved 9mm rounds will definitely do that. It can penetrate 4 layers of sheet rock as easily as any other caliber:

Sheetrock Penetration Testing, Take 1 - The Truth About Guns

You can keep looking; 9mm penetration tests showing penetrations of multiple layers of drywall and other barriers are all over the internet. The bottom line of all this is that you essentially have no basis for choosing 9mm for the purpose of NOT overpenetrating your home. Perhaps you will now downgrade to 22LR to feel more morally upright about yourself, and also accept that it is your day to die when an intruder comes calling.
 

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If I have to shoot someone inside my home, it means my life or the life of my family is in danger. I'm sorry but in this circumstance I do not care where the bullet goes except that it passes into the intruder. This bullet (or slug or shot) I would like to be as large and as physiologically traumatic as possible. The chance of a stray bullet hitting my neighbor or my neighbor's dog is low. The chance that I will die if I don't put down this intruder is high. It's a no-contest no-brainer for me TBH.
I'm with you dude. I shoot to kill any intruder intent on harming myself or my family. With the first weapon that comes to my hand. I keep a Glock model 20 10mm with TRL light, FN five seven with TLR light and a 300 blackout SBR with TRL2-s light/laser in and around my master bedroom. Survival/protection my only initial thoughts or cares. Period.
 

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Over penetration is going to be an issue with most calibers people have by their night stand, myself included. The penetration depth of most modern calibers is posted all over the internet in official and unofficial testing. I'm more concerned with stopping an immediate threat first, confirming that was the only threat and then okay did I blast rounds all over the place or miss. Everyone is different and this is the Internet.
 

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Over penetration is going to be an issue with most calibers people have by their night stand, myself included. The penetration depth of most modern calibers is posted all over the internet in official and unofficial testing. I'm more concerned with stopping an immediate threat first, confirming that was the only threat and then okay did I blast rounds all over the place or miss. Everyone is different and this is the Internet.
No worries here. If I hit anything by accident it would be a coon or skunk. There's no one within at least 8 miles of me!! They know better! LOL
 

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Depends on what is going on, and range of engagement.
 

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There is little chance my 9mm rounds will leave the house as I will always be pointing it at the floor when I shoot it... I think I posted before, I'm blasting them with a 12 gauge first... the 9 is to love tap them in the head when they are down so they don't suffer any longer than necessary... I really hate to see and hear people convulsing and suffering like that, grant them mercy and put them out of their misery quickly because it is the most humane thing to do... I know, I know, I have such a liberal hippy soft tender heart so you don't have to rub it in...

But yea, you have caused me to reconsider my attitude towards considering my neighbor's welfare, screw them, screw everyone, only worry about myself is the best...

I don't care where my bullets fly
doo-dah, doo-dah
Grazed my neighbor in his thigh
doo-dah, doo-dah
Hit his cat and made him cry
doo-dah, doo-dah all the live-long day

The way I see it, there is no such thing as "friendly fire" when I am on the receiving end... if bullets are coming in my house it's Barrett .50 time. If you fired them then you are responsible for their entire trajectory from when they leave your barrel to where they land and all the resulting consequences, intended or not.
 

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Wow, this sure took a turn for the surreal.

While I'm pretty sure it is no longer fruitful to discuss your quixotic notions of home defense, you should be aware of a couple things as an FYI: First, you may NOT "love tap" perps who are down and otherwise incapacitated, whether it's a coup de grace or for any other reason. This will make you guilty of felony murder. Second, if in the act of defending yourself you shoot through your home, into the next home and hit your neighbor and he dies, the guilty party is the intruder, not you. If he survives your 9mm, he will be the one charged with murder (or maybe negligent homicide), not you. I realize that your personal feelings on these two issues and the actual legality of these two issues are not the same, but I think some of us would rather make life and death home defense decisions based on personal and family safety as well as what is permitted us under the law, rather than what we feel to be chivalrous. If you would rather die than consider yourself unchivalrous or inconsiderate, that is entirely up to you, sir.
 

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I'm not LEO or MIL or ex-MIL, just a weapons engineer who loves guns and shooting them, and sometimes collecting them, so I'll list a bunch of scenarios from most-likely to least likely:

1. Shooting range - Not a primary weapon here, I just take what I want to work on. Bolt action for long range, AR-15 for short range, SCAR-17/FAL for everything in the middle.
2. Competition - When I did do them, I ran my BCM AR-15, and would still do so today. Giessele trigger, lightweight, 5.56mm, can't go wrong
3. Training classes - Again, my BCM AR-15... for the same reasons as competitions. This gun has more rounds down range than all my others put together
4. Std. Home Defense - Remington 870 and a Glock 21SF. The SCAR-17 is too expensive to be used here and turned over to the police during a potential investigation
5. Elevated Home Defense - If things were going Ferguson in my neighborhood, I'd have my BCM AR-15 good to go, shotgun, pistol. SCAR-17 would have it's 1-6x on it as well and be nearby
6. Bugging in during the apocalypse - All hands on deck here, SCAR, BCM, Shotguns, Pistols... I'd be wearing my battle belt or pistol belt everywhere regardless of the police and keep my stuff loaded and ready to go.
7. Bugging out by vehicle - SCAR-17 and my Marlin bolt action in the trunk. BCM and handgun in the front
8. Bugging out by foot - SCAR-17 + pistol. SCAR has a SWFA 1-6x on it, so it's pretty versatile and I can swap it with an AImpoint PRO for up close if need be.

Caveats: I never hunted before... while I understand the basic principles, if I had to abandon my home or survive off the land, I'd be ill-prepared. But the scenarios which would involve these are incredibly rare occurrences.

So... no. The SCAR-17 would rarely be my "primary" weapon. It's a nice gun, but it's very expensive, somewhat uncommon, and almost irreplaceable to me. I have 3 AR-15s... 1 SCAR. I lose the SCAR, it's gone forever. I lose the AR-15, I've got 2 others. Regardless, I love my SCAR.
 

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The whole reason I got my SCAR was to be my primary go to combat rifle. 7.62'without a doubt for me. I.carried an M4 (ar) in Afghanistan and it just didn't do it for me. I'll.sick to a round that will actually knock someone down. And hopefully actually be reliable.

If ammo is an issue.think.if it this way. How many rounds of "heavy" 7.62 will you need to aquure one of the hundreds of ars around in.shtf. plenty of to get ahold off if needed. Not many high quality scars.
 

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Wow, this sure took a turn for the surreal.

While I'm pretty sure it is no longer fruitful to discuss your quixotic notions of home defense, you should be aware of a couple things as an FYI: First, you may NOT "love tap" perps who are down and otherwise incapacitated, whether it's a coup de grace or for any other reason. This will make you guilty of felony murder. Second, if in the act of defending yourself you shoot through your home, into the next home and hit your neighbor and he dies, the guilty party is the intruder, not you. If he survives your 9mm, he will be the one charged with murder (or maybe negligent homicide), not you. I realize that your personal feelings on these two issues and the actual legality of these two issues are not the same, but I think some of us would rather make life and death home defense decisions based on personal and family safety as well as what is permitted us under the law, rather than what we feel to be chivalrous. If you would rather die than consider yourself unchivalrous or inconsiderate, that is entirely up to you, sir.
It is the internets so surreal, sarcasm, exaggeration and Don Quixote to make a point all reside here and if you are lucky, a few useful facts may be mixed in as well. It is unlikely anyone would need a "love tap" to the head after being shot, possibly multiple times, from point blank to across a small room by a 12 gauge with any size shot or projectile. That is simply a fact. And it is a fact that shotgun projectiles, while on par with a 30-06 at close range, run out of steam fast after that and pose the least risk to anyone outside the home they are fired inside. To me, that is the the perfect home defense weapon (so long as contrary to VP Biden's advice, you don't waste ammo shooting wildly into the air). I like Mossberg 500's with Choate side folding (mini-14 style) rear stocks and Choate fore end pistol grips. They are cheaper than Remington's or most any auto and are very reliable. My oldest one is from the early 80's and has launched thousands of shells over the years and appears capable of launching thousands more. I do not consider the Scar 17 superior to any of my pump 12 gauges for home invasion defense except that there is an extra 12 shots the Scar 17 gives me with the factory mag. I don't believe I need them, I have a decent shotgun swing and can cycle nearly as fast as an auto, I can actually hit what I'm shooting at repeatedly in rapid succession. After 8 hits, well let's say 4 hits and 4 misses just to account for the tunnel vision and all those bad things that affect us when we are fighting for our lives, after 4 hits, even spread out on say 3 perps, the gunfight will likely be over.

I just don't see where risking what the bullets that WILL leave my home from my Scar 17 will do to those innocents outside my home outweighs the benefit of 12 extra rounds?
 

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4. Std. Home Defense - Remington 870 and a Glock 21SF. The SCAR-17 is too expensive to be used here and turned over to the police during a potential investigation...

So... no. The SCAR-17 would rarely be my "primary" weapon. It's a nice gun, but it's very expensive, somewhat uncommon, and almost irreplaceable to me. I have 3 AR-15s... 1 SCAR. I lose the SCAR, it's gone forever. I lose the AR-15, I've got 2 others. Regardless, I love my SCAR.
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Winnar!

I have paid as little as $75 for a good working used Mossberg 500... if I had to shoot someone with it I wouldn't care if I never got it back or if I got it back after it had been severely abused by some cops "testing" it at the range while they had it. It is a completely disposable and easily replaceable gun that WILL get the job done inside the home. Granted, I will be the first to tell you 870's are nicer and much heavier duty shotguns and they are easier and much cheaper to increase the magazine capacity than a Mossberg. But you get what you pay for which is why they cost more.

I expect to have north of $6k in my one and only Scar 17 in a couple of years when I am finished modding it (you are never really finish modding a gun once you start are you?) Why the 17 for me? I drive Volkswagon TDI diesels for my daily driver grocery getters. If I had the money I'd probably own a 70 LS6 Chevelle, a car I would seldom drive but keep in top condition for those occasions I felt the need to take her for a spin. I can't afford the Chevelle so the Scar is my substitute mid-life crisis toy: Chevrolet Chevelle SS454

Just like I wouldn't drive an LS6 Chevelle to my grandkid's school play where it would be exposed to having soccer moms bash it with their SUV doors. My POS VW's are more than adequate to get me there. I would not grab the Scar 17 when cheaper guns I have will do the intended job just as well if not better for a given situation. Now you wanna race? It's Chevelle time! I have never owned a rifle larger than 5.56. If I were to go deer hunting, I would have to take the .308 Scar if I had no other large caliber option. But that's the point, it gives me options I did not have before. I seek to use those options wisely.
 

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Now can we get back to discussing improbable fantasy scenario's? :)
 

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I'm surprised at the price factor. If I have to shoot someone to defend my home a, few thousand dollars into s, material object would be the last of my worries. But then again I wouldn't use the, scar fir hd anyway. I to am fine with my cheapo M500
 

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In an apocalypse type senario, the SCAR would probably be the one I'd take. However for most other scenario's I'd agree that my Remington 870 with one of my HK pistols would probably be a better choice.
 

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I'm going to stick to tavor. Compact powerful common ammo many types of mags can be used easy to shoot etc
The tavor is one of my new favorite rifles and is strongly becoming a possible contender as the go to rifle. The only thing holding me back right at this moment is that I haven't trained enough with it and run enough drills. That little issue will be fixed by the end of the year, I love this weapon. Also waiting on the geissele trigger pack, I am a huge G trigger fan and I think this pack will make this weapon a hard to beat overall weapon.
 

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When I am on the range busting steel or taking a carbine class and keeping up with the 5.56 AR guys the idea of running the SCAR 17 as my primary starts to really tempt me but when I think back 20+ years how much I came to despise the weight of an M16A2 and a few 5.56 mags by the end of a 3 day FTX I get over it really fast.

I wonder why/how IWI already has caliber conversion kits out for the Tavor but not even the aftermarket has come through on anything for the SCAR? The engineering has already been done and it's already been tested profusely.I would happily pay as much for a 5.56 caliber conversion kit as I would for a complete SCAR 16 rifle if someone would just make the damned things!
 
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